Storm jib attachment

[longjonsilver]

A fellow was wanting to sell me a storm jib that attaches to the groove in the roller furler foil. i have never heard of such a thing.

This article talks about storm jibs but doesn't mention such an attachment system, altho several others are discussed.

https://www.pbo.co.uk/gear/7-storm-jibs-on-test-26029

Now lets see, the wind is piping up and i decide i need to go to my storm jib. So down i take my genoa - in high winds - i have to unfurl it first no? Then i have to get it below - in high winds - and feed the storm jib into the foil.

Seems like a recipe for disaster, no? What am i missing here?

jon

[tkeithlu]

I'm 55 years out of date on jibs, right back to before roller furling, and yes, I do remember bringing down the genny and putting up the tough little storm jib, one corroded shackle at a time. Am I missing something? I had assumed that roller furling allowed roller reefing for a jib. Is it all or nothing?

[tkeithlu]

No, evolutionary theory says intelligence isn't NECESSARY for the development of life as we know it. The whole thing COULD be a cosmic joke by a god with a very strange sense of humor.

[JPA Cate]

Hello, there Longjon,

Yes, there is a problem there to be solved. We used to have a KayZee magazine system foil, and it allowed control of the genoa. We had genoa sized sail bags on deck to receive the sail as it came down, and contain the sail on deck. Then, put the magazine with the storm jib in, and hoist it. We had a light line on the magazine to secure the slides to it so the sails were in a usable format.

If you find out too much wind is coming for your headsail before it comes, then you could take it down, but you will need a reasonable way to corral it. Maybe not possible if you are singlehanding. If your system is all furlers, I would consider a much smaller headsail for passages, and wear the slower passage, to be able to shorten sail safely, should there be an ugly surprise waiting in your future.

Ann

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Hello, there Longjon,
If your system is all furlers, I would consider a much smaller headsail for passages, and wear the slower passage, to be able to shorten sail safely, should there be an ugly surprise waiting in your future.

Yup, the boat i am considering is a cutter rig with both jib and staysail furlers. i am considering converting the staysail to hank on, to allow a storm jib. i believe that the jib is a traditional cut, and not a genoa type sail.

jon

[Benz]

ATN makes a storm jib that clips OVER a rolled headsail. We used one in anger (40 kts going downwind against the Gulfstream) and it worked pretty great. It was easy to deploy, but it was on a catamaran.
On my own boat, my staysail has a reef for really heavy weather.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

A fellow was wanting to sell me a storm jib that attaches to the groove in the roller furler foil. i have never heard of such a thing.



This article talks about storm jibs but doesn't mention such an attachment system, altho several others are discussed.



https://www.pbo.co.uk/gear/7-storm-jibs-on-test-26029



Now lets see, the wind is piping up and i decide i need to go to my storm jib. So down i take my genoa - in high winds - i have to unfurl it first no? Then i have to get it below - in high winds - and feed the storm jib into the foil.



Seems like a recipe for disaster, no? What am i missing here?



jon

If you need to meet any sort of safety regulation then you will find that luff line in foil groove is not permitted. The primary reason is the risk of the sail pulling out of the luff groove. in storm force winds. Secondary reason is entirely practical - how do you safely remove the existing sail? This should be a non-starter.

I’ve heard mixed reviews of the over-the-furl sleeves for storm jibs. In stronger winds it can be difficult to hoist the sleeve over the furl and the genoa sheets.

But as you say you have a cutter, then your inner forestay is perfect. If you have a furling staysail, you can use it as a storm jib (as long as it is built strongly enough), or you can convert it to hanks. Dropping a hanked on sail and replacing it with another hanked on sail is no problem at all, and the relatively smaller sizes make the handling easier. If it’s the right size and you can get it for a good price then any sailmaker can convert the luff to hanks for not too much money.

We have a removable inner forestay and simply drop the furled staysail and replace it with a hanked on (and furled) storm jib. We use the same halyard, furling drum and sheets for both sails - everything is soft shackles or spring pins.

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Dropping a hanked on sail and replacing it with another hanked on sail is no problem at all, and the relatively smaller sizes make the handling easier. If it’s the right size and you can get it for a good price then any sailmaker can convert the luff to hanks for not too much money.

We have a removable inner forestay and simply drop the furled staysail and replace it with a hanked on (and furled) storm jib. We use the same halyard, furling drum and sheets for both sails - everything is soft shackles or spring pins.

i have a line on another storm jib for a very good price. It is hanked on, comes with sheets and a sail bag.

So i am intrigued as to how you have two inner forestays, one hanked on and the other roller furled, and use the same furling drum. Any pics?

Originally Posted by Benz

ATN makes a storm jib that clips OVER a rolled headsail. We used one in anger (40 kts going downwind against the Gulfstream) and it worked pretty great. It was easy to deploy, but it was on a catamaran.
On my own boat, my staysail has a reef for really heavy weather.

This boat that i am considering buying is a 35' trimaran with twin headsails each on roller furlers. i have an asymmetric with an ATN tacker and sock. i like ATN products.

Thanks so much
jon

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

i have a line on another storm jib for a very good price. It is hanked on, comes with sheets and a sail bag.

So i am intrigued as to how you have two inner forestays, one hanked on and the other roller furled, and use the same furling drum. Any pics?

...

Sorry, I wasn’t clear. We only have one inner forestay, which it isn’t a permanently set wire. We have a staysail and a storm jib that we set in that location behind the main forestay using a 2:1 halyard and built-in luff cables. It’s just easier to call it an inner forestay.

The two sails each have a luff cable that takes the place of a forestay and they are each soft hanked to their cable. Each sail is stored, hoisted and lowered when furled, same as a gennaker or code zero. As they are soft hanked to their respective luff cables they could be hoisted/lowered unfurled, but that would be messy and would require an additional halyard.

The luff cables are tensioned by the 2:1 halyard, effectively creating a forestay. Before tensioning we swap over the halyard (top swivel is incorporated in the 2:1 halyard fitting) and the tacks attach to the same furling drum, depending on which sail will be used. We use the same sheets and swap those over as well.

No photos but can take some once we’re out of lockdown.

For a permanently set inner forestay like you have the least expensive option is a hanked staysail that can be slab reefed to storm jib size. Next option is two hanked on sails and simply swapping the halyard and possibly sheets between the two.

You should be able to store the storm jib in a bag already hanked on, so switching to it only means dropping and partially unhanking the staysail, swapping the halyard (and sheets, if the storm jib doesn’t have separate sheets), then hoisting.

[fabgo]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Sorry, I wasn’t clear. We only have one inner forestay, which it isn’t a permanently set wire. We have a staysail and a storm jib that we set in that location behind the main forestay using a 2:1 halyard and built-in luff cables. It’s just easier to call it an inner forestay.

The two sails each have a luff cable that takes the place of a forestay and they are each soft hanked to their cable. Each sail is stored, hoisted and lowered when furled, same as a gennaker or code zero. As they are soft hanked to their respective luff cables they could be hoisted/lowered unfurled, but that would be messy and would require an additional halyard.

The luff cables are tensioned by the 2:1 halyard, effectively creating a forestay. Before tensioning we swap over the halyard (top swivel is incorporated in the 2:1 halyard fitting) and the tacks attach to the same furling drum, depending on which sail will be used. We use the same sheets and swap those over as well.

No photos but can take some once we’re out of lockdown.

For a permanently set inner forestay like you have the least expensive option is a hanked staysail that can be slab reefed to storm jib size. Next option is two hanked on sails and simply swapping the halyard and possibly sheets between the two.

You should be able to store the storm jib in a bag already hanked on, so switching to it only means dropping and partially unhanking the staysail, swapping the halyard (and sheets, if the storm jib doesn’t have separate sheets), then hoisting.

I would love to see some photos of the setup. It sounds interesting.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by fabgo

I would love to see some photos of the setup. It sounds interesting.

Our virtual inner forestay (no permanent stay, temporarily created with our jib halyard, which isn’t needed for the jib anymore as it is lashed, converted to 2:1) is used for both staysail and storm jib. Both sails are furled for storage and hoisting, and use the same furler and sheet.

The biggest issue was creating the lower fitting as the catwalk is not structural. After working with an engineer we concluded that there is no need for a solid fitting, so we made a soft fitting instead. The key thing was to keep the furling drum as low as possible to lower the staysail’s centre of effort.



We’re using a Ropeye Double TDP https://www.ropeye.co.nz/product/double-tdp/ to provide the smooth lead through the 12mm fibreglass catwalk (supported by a 100x150mm 3mm stainless steel plate underneath), with a covered double loop of 6mm SK99 Dyneema creating the fitting. The loop goes under and around the front beam, then is lashed to itself with 5mm SK78 x4 - this provides an even pull top and bottom to avoid rotating the front beam. There is a 10mm SK78 Dyneema stay between two waterline level padeyes that is lead over the lower length of the covered loop to provide vertical support.





The staysail has a 4m anti-torque cable from its head to the top swivel, as we have forward struts at each spreaders and there isn’t any room for sail up there, nor need for the extra area. Nicely lowers the COE.



The storm jib is getting built. It will be soft hanked to a full length anti-torque cable (similar to our jib setup) and similarly furled.

Note that all of our head sails can only be used fully unfurled; there is no partially furling reefing possible. So we do have a bit of hassle factor with having to change sails when we need to reef the headsail. According to our log we only reefed the jib 20% of sailing time, and we’ve only used the smallest reef (storm jib equivalent) 3 times in four years. We’ve decided swapping sails is worth it for the vastly improved performance and 70kg weight savings.

0-30 knots (AWS) - jib
25 - 40 knots - staysail (furl jib, swap sheet and hoist staysail, unfurl)
35 - 50 knots - storm jib (furl and lower staysail, swap halyard, sheet and lower furler to storm jib and hoist, unfurl)

The KZ Racefurlers furling gear is mostly off the shelf, though toggles and some of the fittings are custom, and the quick connect pins are pretty slick.

[fabgo]

Thanks for the photos.

Interesting setup. What do you with the furler when the staysail is not in use? Do you leave it attached to the jib halyard?

But in that case I guess the jib is not self-tacking any more...

Btw, I love the colors!

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by fabgo

Thanks for the photos.

Interesting setup. What do you with the furler when the staysail is not in use? Do you leave it attached to the jib halyard?

But in that case I guess the jib is not self-tacking any more...

Btw, I love the colors!

Haven’t figured out a way to hold the furler when the sails are off of it, but am thinking to put a bungy between it and the jib furler so that it stays up off the catwalk. The halyard gets put away to the starboard bow.

[longjonsilver]

Thanks fxykty for an excellent tutorial on your staysail and storm jib system. Much appreciated
jon

[fxykty]

Another benefit of having an inner forestay for a staysail and particularly for a storm jib is that it moves the centre of effort aft and helps retain the boat’s balance. If you deep reef a genoa/jib on the main forestay or hoist a storm jib on that main forestay it can generate a lot of lee helm as the centre of effort moves forward as the headsail is progressively furled.