Synthetic rigging vs. Stainless steel

[upstateny]

Google YouTube videos from “Sailing Wisdom”. Their boat is all dyneeema. They crossed the Atlantic a few times. He also calls himself the Rigging Doctor. They are on the hard right now rebuilding another boat. They did have one problem where in rough seas the anchor came loose and did some damage to the forestay. They also have hanked on headsail.

[CharmCityBoater]

Originally Posted by upstateny

Google YouTube videos from “Sailing Wisdom”. Their boat is all dyneeema. They crossed the Atlantic a few times. He also calls himself the Rigging Doctor. They are on the hard right now rebuilding another boat. They did have one problem where in rough seas the anchor came loose and did some damage to the forestay. They also have hanked on headsail.

Yep. I met Herbie and Maddie as we also live (lived) in Baltimore. Great couple. He is definitely on the cutting edge when it comes to trying out new technologies... He did say that cold weather was also a challenge because everything would slack and you would need to re-adjust rigging to compensate.

[CharmCityBoater]

I started this thread convinced I was going to use synthetic rigging. After carefully weighing all of the pros and cons while deciding on my exact approach I have decided to stay with stainless steel wire. I suspect a lot of people have gone through this and also ended up with SS wire making the move to synthetic slower as many people end up choosing SS wire.

My decision was based upon the following factors:

• My size boat really requires the use of turnbuckles since tuning the rigging with deadeyes and lashings has proven challenging as per John, from Calligo's, opinion.
• Chaffe
• Costs are still higher, if not the same
• Easier to find riggers who are familiar with the rigging we have chosen
• Ability to fix our own SS rigging using mechanical fittings
• Fear of longer term effects of UV

I REALLY wanted to go synthetic but ended up where we are and feel good about the choice. Just sharing so others can see the decision process used to ultimately decide.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Benz

…Having shrouds overbraided after splicing would be prohibitively expensive, and would negate the DIY aspect, which I enjoy.

It cost us AUD 500.00 to get both ~17.5m shrouds overbraided by IRB in Sydney, including couriering them from Brisbane. We sent them with end fittings installed. Not a big expense at all.

[peb]

Originally Posted by Benz

I'm about to re-rig my boat, which has had Vectran standing rigging for the last twelve+ years, with DM20. All the manufacturers say it's the cat's meow for creep, but I haven't heard of a single boat using it for standing rigging.

So I guess I'll be the guinea pig. I'll report on it in my blog.
I'm afraid I may not be too inspirational to the DIY-er, since I have a lot of practice with complicated splices, and I'll be adding compliation by covering the whole of each shroud with Dyneema sleeve, but at least I'll have a sense of how it holds tune and behaves underway.

Benz, I have a couple of questions. Some background. My current boat has had Dux rigging for aroudn 6 years, I did it myself with Colligo parts, super easy except for the pre-stretching hassle. I am about to start the rigging on my new build, a 25ft gaff rig, and will also be using synthetic. This time I will purchased NE ropes STS heat stretched dyneema.
Now, being a gaff rig, I am worried about chafe so I am planning to cover it also. I purchased Marlow dyneema cover.

I have seen various accounts for how much the cover protects against UV. Some say almost none at all, others say it protects quite well. I suspect its closer to the former since Marlow does not really tout this as a feature of the cover. OTOH, I purchased the white cover, how did they make it white if not paint it already? (yes that might be a dumb question, dont really care).

What paint are you planning to use? How is it applied? Does the line need to be stretched during painting? How many coats?

Finally, I have wooden masts, and will be using loops around the mast at the top of the shrouds. But for the lower shrouds and running backs and the inner (removable)forestay , I am planning on having covered dyneema loops around the mast and attach the shroud to those loops so I can remove/replace them without having to take off everything above them. How is the best way to attach the top of the shrouds in a thimble to these loops in your opinion? Something about having lashing up top is bothering me.

Thanks

[Pitchondesign]

I know nothing about synthetic rigging, but do have a question. How does synthetic rigging react to a lightning strike? Synthetics, I believe, are mostly non conductive, whereas SS is conductive. Presumably, condutive vs non conductive makes a difference. Is there any real-world experience? I'm curious.

[neilpride]

Dyneema is a good insulator, if the mast is well connected to the keel there is no problem, if not, I imagine that everything burns.

Carbon is conductive, not as much as metal but it is conductive.

I believe there is still no real case of lighting strike on a syntethic rigged boat.

One thing that bothers me is that on my boat, on those afternoons where you could see thunder and lightning approaching and not be able to throw with syntethic rigging the 2 metal strips I could attach to the lower wires into the water.

[markxengineerin]

Pure speculation until it actually happens. I find it hard to believe it has never happened, given the frequency of lightning strikes in Florida, and how long synthetic rigs have been around. My boat lived life there w/ previous owners and has been struck 3x since 1994.

My guess is that synthetic melts / sublimates /vaporizes (not sure of correct term) much more readily than steel, and that it's better to have a steel rig when lighting strikes. I don't think conduction or not is going to have much to do with it- everything is wet at that point- and look what happens to non-conductive trees when they get hit!

[markxengineerin]

BoatUS data, 3.8 sailboats per 1000 are hit by lightning per year.
Colligo Marine- 800 boats rigged in a 2018 article

[Benz]

Originally Posted by fxykty

It cost us AUD 500.00 to get both ~17.5m shrouds overbraided by IRB in Sydney, including couriering them from Brisbane. We sent them with end fittings installed. Not a big expense at all.

I guess "expense" is relative. I have ten lengths of line I'd have to do, so even at $100 apiece it'd still be a lot.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by peb

Benz, I have a couple of questions. Some background. My current boat has had Dux rigging for aroudn 6 years, I did it myself with Colligo parts, super easy except for the pre-stretching hassle. I am about to start the rigging on my new build, a 25ft gaff rig, and will also be using synthetic. This time I will purchased NE ropes STS heat stretched dyneema.
Now, being a gaff rig, I am worried about chafe so I am planning to cover it also. I purchased Marlow dyneema cover.

I have seen various accounts for how much the cover protects against UV. Some say almost none at all, others say it protects quite well. I suspect its closer to the former since Marlow does not really tout this as a feature of the cover. OTOH, I purchased the white cover, how did they make it white if not paint it already? (yes that might be a dumb question, dont really care).

What paint are you planning to use? How is it applied? Does the line need to be stretched during painting? How many coats?

Finally, I have wooden masts, and will be using loops around the mast at the top of the shrouds. But for the lower shrouds and running backs and the inner (removable)forestay , I am planning on having covered dyneema loops around the mast and attach the shroud to those loops so I can remove/replace them without having to take off everything above them. How is the best way to attach the top of the shrouds in a thimble to these loops in your opinion? Something about having lashing up top is bothering me.

Thanks

First of all, you should'nt accept chafe as part and parcel of a gaff rig: a well-designed rig should only need chafe gear where the gaff jaws touch the aft lowers when sailing large, and where the jib sheets run across the forestay. Leather, or better yet, Spiroll PVC chafe protectors, will stand you in good stead in those places.
Dyneema's natural color is white--it needs no dye to make it so. I use Marlow's Armourcoat to paint it, just one coat, by dipping the line in a bucket full of paint and squeegeeing the excess out with my hand.
The jury is still out on UV. I have taken apart covered loops whose cover was trashed, and the core was in pretty good shape. Of all the plastics, Dyneema seems to be the most UV-resistant; covered with dyneema, well, win-win.
On my re-rig, having the same thought about not having to remove all the loops above to replace/service a shroud, I'm going to make covered loops with toggles, so they'll go around the mast and grab the upper thimble on the shroud. There will still be some lashings aloft on mine--what's to be afraid of? Lashings are fine if done well.
Good luck on the project--what's the design?

[MicHughV]

Stainless steel rigging wire has this one virtue....it's been around for decades and is a known quantity.
Numerous fittings, diameters, x-sectional area, etc, are available for most any situation, available globally and are easily fitted, modified or repaired by a DIY-er in most any location, especially important for a long distance cruiser, as repairs, replacement, etc are likely to be more available then synthetic rigging.

Likewise, numerous riggers are familiar with it.
Abrasion is not an issue, etc, etc.
Does it have some faults and foibles....sure...but taken in context of above, makes it the most suitable option for most people most of the time....in my opinion.

No denying that synthetic rigging is extremely strong, little stretch, etc. but it does have many disadvantages compared to s/s.

One needs to weigh these pro's and con's carefully before making a decision.

[smj]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Stainless steel rigging wire has this one virtue....it's been around for decades and is a known quantity.

Numerous fittings, diameters, x-sectional area, etc, are available for most any situation, available globally and are easily fitted, modified or repaired by a DIY-er in most any location, especially important for a long distance cruiser, as repairs, replacement, etc are likely to be more available then synthetic rigging.



Likewise, numerous riggers are familiar with it.

Abrasion is not an issue, etc, etc.

Does it have some faults and foibles....sure...but taken in context of above, makes it the most suitable option for most people most of the time....in my opinion.



No denying that synthetic rigging is extremely strong, little stretch, etc. but it does have many disadvantages compared to s/s.



One needs to weigh these pro's and con's carefully before making a decision.

And the CQR anchor has been around for decades and is a known quantity.......just sayin

[Benz]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Stainless steel rigging wire has this one virtue....it's been around for decades and is a known quantity.
Numerous fittings, diameters, x-sectional area, etc, are available for most any situation, available globally and are easily fitted, modified or repaired by a DIY-er in most any location, especially important for a long distance cruiser, as repairs, replacement, etc are likely to be more available then synthetic rigging.

Likewise, numerous riggers are familiar with it.
Abrasion is not an issue, etc, etc.
Does it have some faults and foibles....sure...but taken in context of above, makes it the most suitable option for most people most of the time....in my opinion.

No denying that synthetic rigging is extremely strong, little stretch, etc. but it does have many disadvantages compared to s/s.

One needs to weigh these pro's and con's carefully before making a decision.

But good-quality stainless is getting hard to find, and only manufactured in one or two places, with dubious quality-control standards. Dyneema, on the other hand, though manufactured by one outfit, is used by many rope mills, and can be found nearly anywhere in the world that boats are sailed. If not there, it can certainly be shipped far more cheaply, given its lighter weight.
The fact that NO fancy fittings are needed--you can even use a wooden deadeye or lizard hacked out of local hardwood in a pinch--to set it up makes it pretty much a no-brainer for the DIY guy.
All this palaver about chafe is just silly. Boats should be rigged so there isn't chafe, and the same chafe gear that will protect your sheets against wearing on a steel wire will protect the dyneema from the sheet. Everyone acts as though there's steak-knife-wielding weirdos everywhere just hoping for a rig to cut down--I've sailed 12,000 miles to twelve countries with synthetic rigging, and even in the poorest country, though people tried to steal my outboard and my tools and my saucepans, NOBODY tried to cut my rigging. It just isn't interesting to them.

[neilpride]

Soft BS , high quality ss cables are still being manufactured, and not just in a couple of places, what someone cannot expect is a quality , for example: 1 foot 1x19 3/8 at $1.78 when the best quality is at $2.89 a foot.

Almost 90% of the boats in production leave their factories with SS rigging.
Less and less because better materials are being developed and that is undoubtedly true.

I have even changed hundreds of feet of SS wire and some boats have gone around the world with my wires with no problems, hell!! they even stopped on the way back to thank me and say hello.

The thing is, the crap is everywhere, but if you are smart, choose wisely, ask questions, and pay what it costs, you have the best SS available.