Synthetic rigging vs. Stainless steel

[MicHughV]

I think a little "give" in the rigging is good thing...provides a bit of "shock absorber" to the rig when accidental jibes, etc, occur....

[dial_amonkey]

A couple of things which I see have not been mentioned yet:
(1) Noise?

A good friend of ours was recently on a yacht that had been re rigged using dyneema and he made a huge fuss about how noisy the rig was and "How you made the right decision not to go for Dyneema"

I'm not sure if this is a thing? or it was rig was tension, installation issue?

I got a chance to talk to the owner and he was contemplating moving from 10mm to 8mm in the hope the windage would be reduced (that's where he though the noise was originating) - our friend was not 100% clear on the noise but from memory it was described as 'humming'

(2) Stemballs?

Is there a knot suitable to replace the articulated stem ball terminals like a monkey fist? it would be a simple and elegant solution if there was a knot that could handle compression..

[smj]

Originally Posted by dial_amonkey

A couple of things which I see have not been mentioned yet:
(1) Noise?

A good friend of ours was recently on a yacht that had been re rigged using dyneema and he made a huge fuss about how noisy the rig was and "How you made the right decision not to go for Dyneema"

I'm not sure if this is a thing? or it was rig was tension, installation issue?

I got a chance to talk to the owner and he was contemplating moving from 10mm to 8mm in the hope the windage would be reduced (that's where he though the noise was originating) - our friend was not 100% clear on the noise but from memory it was described as 'humming'

(2) Stemballs?

Is there a knot suitable to replace the articulated stem ball terminals like a monkey fist? it would be a simple and elegant solution if there was a knot that could handle compression..

Not sure about a knot but Colligo makes a fitting.

https://www.colligomarine.com/produc...em-ball-acro-5

[dial_amonkey]

Just remembered the knot is used in soft shackles - but not sure how that would hold up to being used in a stem ball backing plate

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by dial_amonkey

Just remembered the knot is used in soft shackles - but not sure how that would hold up to being used in a stem ball backing plate

Search Carrick Bend - the termination knot used with soft shackles and described in detail in SWL’s high strength soft shackle instructions.

The knot is a LOT bigger than the ball on the end of a SS swage fitting, so you wouldn’t be using it a standard receptacle. And DUX is very stiff to work - I’m not sure that you could even tie a Carrick Bend.

Note that the Colligo solution posted above uses their regular Terminator to finish the stay.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by dial_amonkey

A couple of things which I see have not been mentioned yet:
(1) Noise?

A good friend of ours was recently on a yacht that had been re rigged using dyneema and he made a huge fuss about how noisy the rig was and "How you made the right decision not to go for Dyneema"

I'm not sure if this is a thing? or it was rig was tension, installation issue?

I got a chance to talk to the owner and he was contemplating moving from 10mm to 8mm in the hope the windage would be reduced (that's where he though the noise was originating) - our friend was not 100% clear on the noise but from memory it was described as 'humming'

...

Regarding humming (it’s caused by harmonic vibration and is very common in topping lifts) we had none when we originally replaced our 12mm 1x19 SS shrouds with 18mm Dyneema DUX. The DUX was bare with a loose Dyneema cover pulled over top before splicing. No humming.

We decided to get the shrouds over-braided (essentially machine-braiding a cover), covering both the DUX and the loose cover (for better chafe resistance - the loose cover was useless against chafe).

But now the shrouds vibrate in wind between 15-25 knots. Very loud and possibly self-destructive.

Loosening the tension to stop the vibration is the obvious solution but of course doesn’t work for a sailboat rig. The alternative that racing boats use with their PBO rigs (similar surface finish) is much higher tension, but we can’t do that with our cat either. Instead we wrapped each stay with a 5mm line (a couple wraps every metre) - that’s stopped the vibrations.

The windage is a bit higher, but we only have one shroud per side so that’s OK. Note that monohull racing boats that have replaced their wire or rod rigs with DUX, PBO, or carbon have all decided that the extra windage of the fibre solutions is more than compensated for by the decreased weight aloft.

If the owner replaces 10mm with 8mm he’s going to have a very stretchy rig that will make him even less happy. The first thing he can try is increasing the shroud tension.

[The Yacht Rigger]

Originally Posted by dial_amonkey

A couple of things which I see have not been mentioned yet:
(1) Noise?

A good friend of ours was recently on a yacht that had been re rigged using dyneema and he made a huge fuss about how noisy the rig was and "How you made the right decision not to go for Dyneema"

I'm not sure if this is a thing? or it was rig was tension, installation issue?

I got a chance to talk to the owner and he was contemplating moving from 10mm to 8mm in the hope the windage would be reduced (that's where he though the noise was originating) - our friend was not 100% clear on the noise but from memory it was described as 'humming'

(2) Stemballs?

Is there a knot suitable to replace the articulated stem ball terminals like a monkey fist? it would be a simple and elegant solution if there was a knot that could handle compression..

You would definitely not want to go down a size. Creep would be impossible to stop, unless the 10mm was massively oversized.

One solution for a stemball fitting would be one of these from Blue Wave.
Link to their entire rope fitting catalog is here https://theyachtrigger.com/wp-conten...log_lowres.pdf

[Benz]

Originally Posted by The Yacht Rigger

You would definitely not want to go down a size. Creep would be impossible to stop, unless the 10mm was massively oversized.

One solution for a stemball fitting would be one of these from Blue Wave. Attachment 274881
Link to their entire rope fitting catalog is here https://theyachtrigger.com/wp-conten...log_lowres.pdf

What are your thoughts on the tight bend radius required by the inward parts of the Blue Wave fitting?
Have they pull-tested the fittings with various flavors of Dyneema to see how much strength each one retains in those cramped quarters?

[The Yacht Rigger]

Originally Posted by Benz

What are your thoughts on the tight bend radius required by the inward parts of the Blue Wave fitting?
Have they pull-tested the fittings with various flavors of Dyneema to see how much strength each one retains in those cramped quarters?

So far in all testing the failure point is the splice termination, or throat of the splice, never at the radius.
There are several lengthy discussions on some other sailing forums (SA) where some users have spent a fair bit of time and money testing radius failure points and so far it seems that unless you get to a negative ratio, the eye is never the failure point since it's 2x the material being loaded.
Keep in mind that dyneema rigging should be sized such that the line doesn't experience much more than 10% of MBL, so lets imagine it gets somewhere up near 30%, you still have a 3x safety factor assuming the splice weakens the line by 10%.

[dlj]

Originally Posted by Benz

But good-quality stainless is getting hard to find, and only manufactured in one or two places, with dubious quality-control standards.

Bullsh!t.

Good-quality stainless steel is made many places. In fact, all over the world.

dj

[Benz]

Originally Posted by dlj

Bullsh!t.

Good-quality stainless steel is made many places. In fact, all over the world.

dj

Go to a rigging shop.
Look at their rigging wire selection.
Where is it manufactured?

Go to another one.
Do the same.

Maybe there's lots of mills producing stainless steel all over the world, but not that many are making it for the marine industry, and most US suppliers of wire and tubing for boats are getting it from Taiwan.

[dlj]

Originally Posted by Benz

Go to a rigging shop.
Look at their rigging wire selection.
Where is it manufactured?

Go to another one.
Do the same.

Maybe there's lots of mills producing stainless steel all over the world, but not that many are making it for the marine industry, and most US suppliers of wire and tubing for boats are getting it from Taiwan.

I have.

You are simply propagating internet garbage. Sorry.

Not only that, i have been working with suppliers of wire rope of several kinds dealing both with sourcing and quality control of production. So you may believe what you wish. But the quality of both the wire rope and the base metal it is produced from has not deteriorated as per your original statement.

dj

[Benz]

Originally Posted by dlj

I have.

You are simply propagating internet garbage. Sorry.

Not only that, i have been working with suppliers of wire rope of several kinds dealing both with sourcing and quality control of production. So you may believe what you wish. But the quality of both the wire rope and the base metal it is produced from has not deteriorated as per your original statement.

dj

Sounds like you have a dog in the fight.

Would you be willing to share which suppliers of SS sailboat rigging wire in the US are NOT sourcing from Taiwan, China, or SE Asia? Surely if there's mills "all over the world," SOMEONE's carrying wire made elsewhere?

[dlj]

Originally Posted by Benz

Sounds like you have a dog in the fight.

The only dog I have in the fight is being truthful and representing facts not fiction.

Originally Posted by Benz

Would you be willing to share which suppliers of SS sailboat rigging wire in the US are NOT sourcing from Taiwan, China, or SE Asia?
Surely if there's mills "all over the world," SOMEONE's carrying wire made elsewhere?

There are a number, it's an irrelevant point.

Originally Posted by Benz

But good-quality stainless is getting hard to find, and only manufactured in one or two places, with dubious quality-control standards.

The point is - you made the above statement. It's simply false. Good quality stainless is not hard to find. It is manufactured in a number of places. And the quality control is excellent.

So, my dog in the fight - listening to wrong information. You've made a lot of good points in many other aspects of this thread but the above statement is simply wrong.

dj

[Jim Cate]

I've got no dogs here, but need occasionally to buy rigging wire. Could you please list some of the superior wires that you mention upthread and where to buy them? There are lots of folks who need this info.

Jim