Synthetic rigging vs. Stainless steel

[dlj]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I've got no dogs here, but need occasionally to buy rigging wire. Could you please list some of the superior wires that you mention upthread and where to buy them? There are lots of folks who need this info.

Jim

Jim,

I've not had a problem buying good wire rope. So I'm at a bit of a loss here as to how to answer your question.

I'm going to flip the question around on you - please tell me explicitly what wire rope are you buying that is inferior and please tell me explicitly - in engineering terms - what's inferior about it?

dj

[Benz]

Originally Posted by dlj

The only dog I have in the fight is being truthful and representing facts not fiction.


There are a number, it's an irrelevant point.



The point is - you made the above statement. It's simply false. Good quality stainless is not hard to find. It is manufactured in a number of places. And the quality control is excellent.

So, my dog in the fight - listening to wrong information. You've made a lot of good points in many other aspects of this thread but the above statement is simply wrong.

dj

You charge me with "propagating internet garbage," but my search for quality domestic stainless from a reliable source, thirteen years ago when I was building by boat, was fruitless. I DID use the internet to search, but it was not my primary source of information. One of the reasons I chose synthetic rigging was that all the wire I could find came from Taiwan.

Maybe I was bad at looking, which is why I'm asking for your source for SS wire from a reputable manufacturer.

This doesn't have to be a battle: you've said that there's lots of sources for quality stainless. I simply want you to share a few, since my boatbuilding days are not over.

[dlj]

Originally Posted by Benz

You charge me with "propagating internet garbage," but my search for quality domestic stainless from a reliable source, thirteen years ago when I was building by boat, was fruitless. I DID use the internet to search, but it was not my primary source of information. One of the reasons I chose synthetic rigging was that all the wire I could find came from Taiwan.

Maybe I was bad at looking, which is why I'm asking for your source for SS wire from a reputable manufacturer.

This doesn't have to be a battle: you've said that there's lots of sources for quality stainless. I simply want you to share a few, since my boatbuilding days are not over.

Here, you are mixing two different topics: good quality stainless, and domestic - or a geographic component that has nothing to do with engineering quality. And you've also now changed your statement from "Stainless" to Stainless wire".

So what do you want? Good quality? Or domestic? And what is domestic for you? Where are you in the world? I have no idea. I'm guessing you are from the US. If that's correct, an excellent US based stainless steel producer is Carpenter Technologies. Is there another country you are interested in? There's Aubert Duval in France, there's lots more in lots more places around the world.

Taiwan by the way, also produces excellent quality stainless. So your rejection of using Taiwan stainless is clearly not one based on engineering.

It seems you are mixing up two different things - production of stainless steel, and the manufacture of stainless steel wire rope. That is commonly two different industries, the stainless production and the wire rope manufacturing.

dj

[dlj]

Actually, just realized I skipped a step - I'd said "It seems you are mixing up two different things - production of stainless steel, and the manufacture of stainless steel wire rope. That is commonly two different industries, the stainless production and the wire rope manufacturing."

There's actually three steps, not two. Stainless production, wire drawing, and then wire rope manufacturing. The first two steps are often done in one company, but not always, there are independent wire drawers/swaggers. But typically for the wire rope used in sailboat rigging, it would be drawn, not swaged.

dj

[The Yacht Rigger]

My 2c...
316 Stainless wire rope, of high quality, is hard to source if you try to find it anywhere outside of Korea.
I'm open to correction though.
That's what I understood Benz to be referring to.

[neilpride]

Of course, mostly sold in bulk to rigging workshops, now try to find something decent at retail.

I have bought it in Belgium, rolls of 6, 8 , 10, 3/8, 5/16 etc,,,, if you try to get them to sell you something, well good luck.....

[dlj]

Originally Posted by The Yacht Rigger

My 2c...
316 Stainless wire rope, of high quality, is hard to source if you try to find it anywhere outside of Korea.
I'm open to correction though.
That's what I understood Benz to be referring to.

OK, so why do you care where it's made if you can get high quality? Also, what is being made where? The stainless? The wire? Or the wire rope? Because all three are not likely being made in the same place. Well, the first two steps might be, but not that common.

dj

[dlj]

Originally Posted by neilpride

now try to find something decent at retail.

What exactly does this mean? I'm honestly not understanding. The statement implies there is something wrong - but what is wrong?

dj

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by dlj

What exactly does this mean? I'm honestly not understanding. The statement implies there is something wrong - but what is wrong?

dj

I'm not going to get too involved in this aspect to much , good quality SS dealers as far as I know don't sell to the typical cruiser looking for a backstay and babystay, I've given you a silly example.

You can find it, but don't expect it to be cheap.

When they say here that it is difficult to find good quality ss, I wonder what they mean? Do they mean that the new rigging will break in a short time? that it will rust the next day? That it is made in Korea and it is suspicious? That you tighten and tighten and it never holds tension?

Of course, there are many who say, my rigging is 20 years old and still strong, they don't know what they are talking about, the metal of these days is crap, fake too.

Good quality SS exists and is available.

[The Yacht Rigger]

Originally Posted by dlj

OK, so why do you care where it's made if you can get high quality? Also, what is being made where? The stainless? The wire? Or the wire rope? Because all three are not likely being made in the same place. Well, the first two steps might be, but not that common.

dj

I have not stated that I care where it's made. I don't. I just want quality. It would be great if we had alternate options from other sources to create some better competition in the market, but right now I have zero issues (apart from occasional supply chain slowdowns) getting wire rope from KOS. I do wish I could buy direct, but understand them protecting their distributors.

Also the quality isn't the same as it was 20 or so years ago. I believe possibly due them getting the chromium and molybdenum levels down to miminums with more accurate metallurgy - whereas possibly in the past they were "rounding up" to be safe and therefore corrosion resistance in the past seems to be higher. Purely anecdotal experience here, but man, some of that old wire stays crazy shiny after 15 years compared to the newer stuff.

[dlj]

Originally Posted by neilpride

I'm not going to get too involved in this aspect to much , good quality SS dealers as far as I know don't sell to the typical cruiser looking for a backstay and babystay, I've given you a silly example.

You can find it, but don't expect it to be cheap.

When they say here that it is difficult to find good quality ss, I wonder what they mean? Do they mean that the new rigging will break in a short time? that it will rust the next day? That it is made in Korea and it is suspicious? That you tighten and tighten and it never holds tension?

Of course, there are many who say, my rigging is 20 years old and still strong, they don't know what they are talking about, the metal of these days is crap, fake too.

Good quality SS exists and is available.

Nailed it!

dj

[The Yacht Rigger]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Of course, mostly sold in bulk to rigging workshops, now try to find something decent at retail.

I have bought it in Belgium, rolls of 6, 8 , 10, 3/8, 5/16 etc,,,, if you try to get them to sell you something, well good luck.....

Not sure what you are referring to RE finding stuff at retail. A lot of riggers sell wire by the foot at fair prices, you just need to verify that they are selling KOS - as that's currently the only manufacturer that 99% of us trust to produce a consistently high quality product.
Or maybe I misunderstood you.

[neilpride]

Probably misunderstanding, I don't buy from Vietnam or Korea, I buy directly from the factory, based in the UE, we don't sell wire by the foot unless it is a finished cable, with terminals.

I don't see it, 4 years ago I replaced all the rod rigging on a Frers 45, presumably according to the owner it is the original rigging, or about 23 years old.

Dismantling the terminals, lots of rust and some cracks in the heads, and this is nitronic 50.

I don't know, I certainly don't have those problems of finding good material .

[dlj]

Originally Posted by The Yacht Rigger

I have not stated that I care where it's made. I don't. I just want quality. It would be great if we had alternate options from other sources to create some better competition in the market, but right now I have zero issues (apart from occasional supply chain slowdowns) getting wire rope from KOS. I do wish I could buy direct, but understand them protecting their distributors.

Also the quality isn't the same as it was 20 or so years ago. I believe possibly due them getting the chromium and molybdenum levels down to miminums with more accurate metallurgy - whereas possibly in the past they were "rounding up" to be safe and therefore corrosion resistance in the past seems to be higher. Purely anecdotal experience here, but man, some of that old wire stays crazy shiny after 15 years compared to the newer stuff.

To buy direct you need to buy a lot.... Talking tons of material....

So 20 years ago means you are talking 2003, more or less. The composition of these alloys has not changed from then to now. If you were talking to me about 50 years ago - say 1973 time frame - then I would actually disagree with you strongly as in the 1980's and 1990's there were some advancements made in the production of stainless steel that actually improved the quality.

I'd be interested in real data about the wire you consider working better. But honestly, if you are only thinking anecdotal information, it's not very useful. Said with all due respect. I'm not trying to be confrontational. Simply factual.

Wire rope used in rigging for sailboats is most commonly made from an austenitic stainless steel, and we tend to like specifically 316 stainless steel. There are two major factors affecting the corrosion resistance of this alloy (I'm not talking about different alloys here, I'm sticking to 316):

1) Surface finish
2) Percent reduction of area (cold working)

So feeding into the wire rope construction are the individual wires that have the above two components as a fundamental part of their manufacturing. During wire rope manufacturing, you must maintain a number of variables, including the quality of the surface finish. Wire rope construction is very complicated and is essentially the last step in the process of going from Stainless ingot to final product.

As the end buyer - you have no control over any of this process. But, you can ask for the certs of the material - although if you aren't a large buyer, you probably aren't going to get anywhere. Therefore, if you are looking for a reputable supplier, ask for the certifications, learn what you need to ask for, and reputable buyers will be able to provide you a lot more information than what you are currently getting (or likely asking for).

Unless you are a wire rope buyer at the level where you can mandate controls and certifications, that's the best advice I can give you as to how to find a reputable supplier. I'm not trying to be either elusive or combative here - as an end user wishing to buy wire rope for a boat or two or three - you are a very small player and have no leverage to go much further.

As to the quality of wire rope getting worse - frankly - I have to see real data. hearsay and impressions just don't give the information needed and only seem to "feed the insanity" of "things used to be better". Now, maybe they were, or maybe they really weren't. As time passes, the things that stood the passage of time are still standing. So we tend to look back and say - See? That old stuff is better! But, if you really look at everything that had been done back then, many things didn't make it to today... Our memories are not the best sources of actual data.

dj

[dlj]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Probably misunderstanding, I don't buy from Vietnam or Korea, I buy directly from the factory, based in the UE, we don't sell wire by the foot unless it is a finished cable, with terminals.

I don't see it, 4 years ago I replaced all the rod rigging on a Frers 45, presumably according to the owner it is the original rigging, or about 23 years old.

Dismantling the terminals, lots of rust and some cracks in the heads, and this is nitronic 50.

I don't know, I certainly don't have those problems of finding good material .

By UE I'm thinking European Union? In your signature you have Spain. Where are you in Spain? Just curious, I used to live in San Sebastian...

Europe has a lot of excellent stainless manufacturers - including wire rope manufacture.

23 year old rod rigging - yeap, sounds about right, cracks in the swaged ends and corrosion happening. Nitronic 50 is great stuff, but like everything, it's got it's lifespan...

dj