taking own P, E, I, J measurements

[crankysailor]

Hi all, so I am planning to update our sail wardrobe and want to measure the rig to get some quotes etc. I went thru the definitions and some of the "guides" on a few sailmaker websites but a couple of points are not quite clear:

- E: the length of the foot of the main. I measured this from the ring used to attach the tack to the point where the outhaul laid after removing the old main. But this is not clear..should one measure to the maximum farthest point where the outhaul could potentially be pulled to?..but this wouldn't leave any room for the sail to be actually out hauled if the foot was really this size..

Also some definition I saw online said the E is measured from the back of the mast...So not really from the actual ring for the tack of the main as I doing? [emoji848]

Similarly :

P: the length of the luff of the main.. measured from the tack ring to the highest point the main halyard could go or from the top edge of the boom?...

- J: The base of the fore triangle..but..is this from the base of the forestay or from the top of the roller furler where the tack of the foresail would actually be attached?

Thanks to anyone who can clarify what the correct way to measure these parameters is. Cheers!

[skipmac]

Sorry I can't help with the precise definitions of measuring but a couple of suggestions.

I would make the measurements and then detail to the sailmaker how I did it. For example I would measure the E using the exact length of the usable foot of the main IE position of the tack to the max that would allow outhaul to work and note that the sailmaker. However I would also measure the full distance mast to end of boom and note that as well.

Another suggestion, unless your rig has been changed or modified or you have a fairly unique boat, most sailmakers of any size will have experience with your boat and know the dimensions from previous jobs. That's how it worked when I ordered new sails for my boat.

[thomm225]

Is this for your Malo 40H?

If so, the measurements are listed on the sailboatdata.com website.

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/malo-40h

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Is this for your Malo 40H?

If so, the measurements are listed on the sailboatdata.com website.

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/malo-40h

Right.. but it is quite often mentioned that one should measure the rig nonetheless cause actual numbers may vary and not by a little as I am finding out... manufacturer variations, original rigs could have been replaced, etc.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by crankysailor

Right.. but it is quite often mentioned that one should measure the rig nonetheless cause actual numbers may vary and not by a little as I am finding out... manufacturer variations, original rigs could have been replaced, etc.

Yes, of course you should verify and you can usually do that with your old sails adding a bit for stretch

[AdamLoory]

The P and E measurements are maximum dimensions. Sailmakers will make adjustments from these numbers to account for stretch and the cut up and set backs of the attachment points. That's why the P and E measurements alone are not enough information for a sailmaker to build a new sail. P&E are good enough to give you a quote. To build the sail, sailmakers need to know much more.

P is the distance from the top of the boom, just behind the mast to the bottom of the black measurement band near the top of the mast, or if there is no band, to the main halyard up all the way. No sailmaker will build a sail to that dimension.

E is measured from the aft face of the mast at the boom height the to the inside of the measurement band near the end of the the boom. If there is no measurement band, measure to the bearing point of the outhaul attachment mechanism when the outhaul is pulled as tight as possible. Thus if you outhaul is just shackle on a wire, pull the outhaul out until the shackle gets pulled into the sleeve and measure to the pin of the shackle.
Most sailmakers will have a well annotated measurement form you can fill out.

[thomm225]

Lots of good diagrams and instructions online as well:

https://www.google.com/search?q=sail...=1574531618160

https://www.google.com/search?q=sail...=1574531754517

[Kelkara]

Precision Sails have very detailed instructions on youtube for measuring sails the way they like to receive measurements.

Headsail:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...FpbnMpPwCZ5CdJ

Mainsail:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...X5Z2bKQm0N0ooY

Extras for Catamarans:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...QYO-dFJ1LGE9vz

[MJH]

Originally Posted by crankysailor

Hi all, so I am planning to update our sail wardrobe and want to measure the rig to get some quotes etc. I went thru the definitions and some of the "guides" on a few sailmaker websites but a couple of points are not quite clear:

- E: the length of the foot of the main. I measured this from the ring used to attach the tack to the point where the outhaul laid after removing the old main. But this is not clear..should one measure to the maximum farthest point where the outhaul could potentially be pulled to?..but this wouldn't leave any room for the sail to be actually out hauled if the foot was really this size..

Also some definition I saw online said the E is measured from the back of the mast...So not really from the actual ring for the tack of the main as I doing? [emoji848]

Similarly :

P: the length of the luff of the main.. measured from the tack ring to the highest point the main halyard could go or from the top edge of the boom?...

- J: The base of the fore triangle..but..is this from the base of the forestay or from the top of the roller furler where the tack of the foresail would actually be attached?

Thanks to anyone who can clarify what the correct way to measure these parameters is. Cheers!

Sails are the principal devices gathering the driving force (wind) for a sailboat and should be measured/manufactured accurately. Likewise, if you are a cruiser, get good cruising sails; if you are into racing then consider other options.

I would get at least three estimates and have the companies come to the boat to do the measurements which is normal operating procedure these days. I would watch them during the measuring process to gather that knowledge and compare details from all three companies. Each company may add or subtract a tad here or there for some reason...ask why. You now have your sail specifications and they won't change unless you do some modifications or change sail loft. If the sails do not perform as expected you have some recourse for correction. If you provide the measurements GOOD LUCK. So, I would plan to undergo this project in a port with available sail lofts and time for some testing. Otherwise just go with the manufacturer's specifications...again GOOD LUCK.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[alansmith]

Do you still have your old mainsail? Wouldn't hurt to get leach, luff, and foot from it. The old sail may have stretched over the years.

BTW, as I am in the same process of you...I am putting a new Tidesmarine sailtrack and slide system on my mast. I sail singlehanded or with my skinny little wife...she is okay on the tiller but has no real physical strength to fight a big heavy main. So, during my upgrades I am going to tame the beast.

Another thing to think about....how are your sheeves in the mast and in the boom. Upon close inspection I noticed many of my sheeves lips were missing pieces or severely damaged.

One other thing...think about dynema...I still keep stainless wire in the diamonds but my shrouds are all dynema now. When I go to Mexico early January I'm ditching my stainless wire backstay and forestay. Will go dynema backstay and antitorsional synthetic forestay with L-line furler from Colligo.

I trailer my boat so I want light and simple. I have a heavy profurl with aluminum extrusions that is a bee-otch to deal with when dropping the mast.

So, get all the shizzle done when putting on the new sails....mast head light ...antenna...wind instruments....etc ….

Have fun

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by AdamLoory

The P and E measurements are maximum dimensions. Sailmakers will make adjustments from these numbers to account for stretch and the cut up and set backs of the attachment points. That's why the P and E measurements alone are not enough information for a sailmaker to build a new sail. P&E are good enough to give you a quote. To build the sail, sailmakers need to know much more.



P is the distance from the top of the boom, just behind the mast to the bottom of the black measurement band near the top of the mast, or if there is no band, to the main halyard up all the way. No sailmaker will build a sail to that dimension.



E is measured from the aft face of the mast at the boom height the to the inside of the measurement band near the end of the the boom. If there is no measurement band, measure to the bearing point of the outhaul attachment mechanism when the outhaul is pulled as tight as possible. Thus if you outhaul is just shackle on a wire, pull the outhaul out until the shackle gets pulled into the sleeve and measure to the pin of the shackle.

Most sailmakers will have a well annotated measurement form you can fill out.

Thanks. I think this is what I was looking for and it clarifies how those numbers will be used by the sailmaker.

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Lots of good diagrams and instructions online as well:

https://www.google.com/search?q=sail...=1574531618160

https://www.google.com/search?q=sail...=1574531754517

Yeah I have heard of this Google thing too.. thanks. However, If I had found what I was looking for with a simple google search, do you really think I would be asking folks in a forum? [emoji848]

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by crankysailor

Yeah I have heard of this Google thing too.. thanks. However, If I had found what I was looking for with a simple google search, do you really think I would be asking folks in a forum? [emoji848]

Everything you have been told on this thread as far as rig i j p e measurements is in the google links I gave you above.

Diagrams, instructions on how to measure, etc but you do have to know how to research it

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Everything you have been told on this thread as far as rig i j p e measurements is in the google links I gave you above.

Diagrams, instructions on how to measure, etc but you do have to know how to research it

I congratulate you on your superior googling skills.

Anyhow I reiterate my thanks to @AdamLoory for hitting the crux of what was bothering me. The numbers are conventions describing some theoretical maximum and sailmakers will account for things like stretch and fittings etc. Check. However this makes me wonder.. how is it that there are so many stories about sails ordered which do not fit or fit poorly?.. assuming one can use a measuring tape and the sailmaker deducts the allowances etc.. what can go wrong? [emoji848]

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by crankysailor

I congratulate you on your superior googling skills.

Anyhow I reiterate my thanks to @AdamLoory for hitting the crux of what was bothering me. The numbers are conventions describing some theoretical maximum and sailmakers will account for things like stretch and fittings etc. Check. However this makes me wonder.. how is it that there are so many stories about sails ordered which do not fit or fit poorly?.. assuming one can use a measuring tape and the sailmaker deducts the allowances etc.. what can go wrong? [emoji848]

Maybe relate some of these many stories cause i've never heard any where the measurements have been correctly obtained and applied, I have heard plenty of stuff up's where the process has not been done correctly, but thats usually the case with everything init......