Torsion line heavy staysail

[catsketcher]

Gday

Has anyone used a torsion line with Code Zero furler for their staysail? I am keen to use a staysail, about half the area of my genoa, for heavier wind sailing. I need to either set up another inner forestay (my current one only goes about 40% of the way to the headstay attachment) or I can use my Code Zero furler and add a torsion rope to the new and larger staysail.

Has anyone got feedback on using a Code Zero furler for upwind sails?

cheers

Phil

[Markhunter1097]

I have, but found I couldn’t get the luff tension required for a staysail. When I asked a smart sailmaker, he just said use wire and a high field lever

[fxykty]

Get a sailmaker or rigger or use an online calculator to calculate the luff load of the staysail at its highest windspeed, then factor in the safety ratio for SWL. Then check your code zero furler specification for the luff load that it supports. Generally they have separate SWLs for reaching/downwind sails vs upwind.

As an example, our 120sqm gennaker has a Facnor furler rated to 2.5T. When we got our 24sqm staysail built the calculated luff load was just shy of 4T, so our staysail furler is a 4T model. The luff load of the 8sqm storm jib is just over 3T, so we can use the same 4T furler and top swivel for both sails.

It’s also nice to have a furler for each sail and not to have to worry about swapping them over.

[Markhunter1097]

[Markhunter1097]

There is two pics of the set up, vectran stay, code zero furler, which u can’t see, and handed on jib.
I now just use this set up without the furler and a halyard as was impossible to furl when the wind was up

[catsketcher]

Thanks for that Mark (that shot of the staysail reminds me of Pulbah Island on Lake Mac). I do want the staysail to furl well in high winds. If it won't then I will just put on a removable Dynex Dux innerforestay on. Was your problem one of the torque rope twisting?

Fxykty - my boat is a fair bit smaller than your and our furler is a 2.5t model, but my staysail is only 12m squared in area. So it should be okay. Do you have the same problems Mark had with furling in high winds?

I appreciate the responses - saves me time and money.

Cheers

Phil

[Markhunter1097]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

Thanks for that Mark (that shot of the staysail reminds me of Pulbah Island on Lake Mac). I do want the staysail to furl well in high winds. If it won't then I will just put on a removable Dynex Dux innerforestay on. Was your problem one of the torque rope twisting?

Fxykty - my boat is a fair bit smaller than your and our furler is a 2.5t model, but my staysail is only 12m squared in area. So it should be okay. Do you have the same problems Mark had with furling in high winds?

I appreciate the responses - saves me time and money.

Cheers

Phil

g


Towlers bay Pittwater

Issue furling was that my furling line is shorter and I need to go amidships to fuel, that’s just my preference, and in a breeze if I let the sheet go then that was trying to kill me as i furled, so really just a user set up issue, torsion line was fine with the hanks

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

Thanks for that Mark (that shot of the staysail reminds me of Pulbah Island on Lake Mac). I do want the staysail to furl well in high winds. If it won't then I will just put on a removable Dynex Dux innerforestay on. Was your problem one of the torque rope twisting?



Fxykty - my boat is a fair bit smaller than your and our furler is a 2.5t model, but my staysail is only 12m squared in area. So it should be okay. Do you have the same problems Mark had with furling in high winds?



I appreciate the responses - saves me time and money.



Cheers



Phil

No trouble furling at all even in 40 kts AWS because we have a proper furler for the job and sized correctly. However, we have a traditional single line furler so it can handle higher loads. An endless line furler does have a practical limit in the amount of torque force it can handle before the line slips, so that might be the problem Mark is experiencing. The other problem cause could be the excessive amount of halyard between the sheave and the head (assuming the staysail does not have a full height luff) - a 2:1 halyard will twist up itself if it’s too long. ‘Too long’ is more length from sheave to swivel than the separation of the two legs of the halyard on the mast.

The loads are probably OK so try your Code 0 furler and see what happens.

Here’s our staysail hoisted. It is a structured luff sail so has no torque rope or anything else in the luff. You can see the black torque rope taking up the top third of the luff length above the sail’s head, with the top swivel and 2:1 halyard above that. The strop is too keep the halyard short at full hoist so it doesn’t twist. The separation of the jib halyard sheave and bitter end of the jib halyard is 26cm.



The storm jib is lashed at head and tack to a full length torque rope - the torque rope connects to the bottom furler and top swivel. To use it we detach the staysail from the furler and top swivel and replace with the storm jib torque rope.

[catsketcher]

Excellent points - thanks again for the replies.

Fxykty - nice setup. Mine will be a little different. I am putting on a pole that runs under the walkway and forward to be the prodder. So my new inner foerestay will attch to the pole and be about 80cm aft of the forestay and only goes up to the intermediates. So a smaller luff (my boat is smaller too) Can you get enough forestay tension on with just the 2;1 and a winch? Do you get lots of forestay sag?

Fxykty - can I ask you one more question? I saw the rig pic including the radar. I am thinking of sailing across to Vanuatu next year (probably fron Southport). I have an AIS transponder (love AIS) and was thinking of getting a radar for squall detection at night and maybe backup checking for ships without AIS. I am about to pull the pin and get a Halo 20+ (maybe at the boat show in Sydney). Do you find your one useful? Would you recommend radar?

Apologies for the thread drift - there are lots of concurrent jobs going on with the boat at the moment, my mind is in a few places at once.

cheers

Phil

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

…
I am putting on a pole that runs under the walkway and forward to be the prodder. So my new inner foerestay will attch to the pole and be about 80cm aft of the forestay and only goes up to the intermediates. So a smaller luff (my boat is smaller too) Can you get enough forestay tension on with just the 2;1 and a winch? Do you get lots of forestay sag?

…

Sounds like you’re making a great setup for the inner forestay. Do you already have a sheave in the mast and a tang at the intermediates to make the halyard 2:1? Alternatively, use a single part halyard to hoist and tension with a 3:1 or 4:1 downhaul under the furler, tensioned with a mast or cockpit winch, or the windlass. Or 12:1 and pulled by hand - the tensioning distance is very short.


The 2:1 halyard and a 48 ratio winch creates about 3,000 kg static tension, which together with a structured luff sail https://www.doylesails.com/innovation/structured-luff/ means we have about one third more sag than the jib on our primary forestay (which doesn’t have much). Good enough.

Originally Posted by catsketcher

…
I am thinking of sailing across to Vanuatu next year (probably fron Southport). I have an AIS transponder (love AIS) and was thinking of getting a radar for squall detection at night and maybe backup checking for ships without AIS. I am about to pull the pin and get a Halo 20+ (maybe at the boat show in Sydney). Do you find your one useful? Would you recommend radar?

…

Yes, radar is useful for seeing squalls and the extent of thunderstorms, transiting straits or entering harbours at night, confirming exact position in places where charted locations are offset from reality, setting a guard zone to catch those boats that don’t transmit AIS, establishing your exact ranges to other boats and shorelines when anchoring. Other uses I can’t recall as well.

Whatever model you get, make sure it allows you to track targets and establish their intercept courses. It should also integrate with your chart plotter so that you can overlay it on your chart and see AIS data.

Originally Posted by catsketcher

…

Apologies for the thread drift - there are lots of concurrent jobs going on with the boat at the moment, my mind is in a few places at once.

cheers

Phil

Threads are made to drift

[catsketcher]

The attached pic shows my cat doing a nice sail to windward near Percy. It has been almost 10 years since we headed north (we did do a Hobart trip) - hence the need to go again next year.

If you look carefully you can see the inner forestay going to a height of 2/3 of the cap height. There is currently an inner forestay which I hank the storm jib onto. It is fab to have a smaller jib than the genoa but it is too small for most days but absolutely wonderful when the wind gets up - I don't reef the genny. But we have a hole in our wardrobe when the wind gets up between say 16 and 25 knots to windward. Hence the desire to move a temporary stay to the position indicated on the pic.

I have a tang (which takes the current inner forestay) and halyard sheave for the current inner forestay. So a 2 to 1 is easy to do. I will have to relocate the current inner forestay down probably 400mm or so (I would like to keep it close to the curent tang) and use possibly a tee ball fitting or similar for the slightly lower inner forestay.

The idea behind the soft furler is twofold. One - at night in inclement conditions, we can put it up and furl or unfurl the genoa and staysail at will. I will lead the endless furler aft to the cockpit for both the reacher and staysail. Two, most of the time I don't want the staysail stay to be there. It would be a real pain for tacking, so I want it totally gone when it is not needed.

I can do this with a Dynex Dux stay and tighten it when needed and put the staysail on hanks. But it is the idea of getting the staysail ready early and having it ready for night time use that makes me lean that way. The staysail is 11 square metres - so not too big, but it should be a useful sail when the wind gets up and people have to start holding on.

cheers

Phil