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mikereed100 · 06-04-2015, 07:52

Just to complicate things a bit, have you considered putting that blade on a boom? While creating it's own issues, it would eliminate the need for tracks. We have a blade on a boom and find it easy and simple to control.

Matt Johnson · 06-04-2015, 07:54

Our new aluminum boat does not have tracks, but instead a fixed padeye on the coachroof for the staysail block. We plan on using a floating lead system with the control lines led across deck to the windward winch for fine tuning.

Matt

**Dockhead** · 06-04-2015, 08:03

The more I think about this system, the more I like it.

I would love to hear from someone (Uncivilized?) who has actually used this.

I guess the equivalent of fore and aft adjustment of the track is to raise and lower the ring by equal movement of the two control lines. Seems to me you'd get a bloody great range of adjustment like that -- should be equal to a long track. This allows you to balance the leech and foot tension.

But you can also move the ring inboard and outboard! By hauling in one control line and letting out the other. This will be invaluable for sailing off the wind when you need to open the leech -- stop it from curling inward, which I hate so much. This will be even much more important for such a high aspect sail, I guess. Hard on the wind you can bring in the sheeting angle as far as you want. You vary the sheeting angle itself, which you cannot with a track!

I could bring the control lines across the deck, to turning blocks on a stanchion (I guess), and back to the primary windward winch. I'll need clutches back there I guess.

One disadvantage is it will be miles of extra cordage, since you'll need significant purchase (at least 2:1, maybe more) on the control lines. But I guess this is a small price to pay for the other advantages.

And the same system can probably be used to barber haul the regular yankee and staysail sheets

Matt Johnson · 06-04-2015, 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The more I think about this system, the more I like it.

I would love to hear from someone (Uncivilized?) who has actually used this.

I guess the equivalent of fore and aft adjustment of the track is to raise and lower the ring by equal movement of the two control lines. Seems to me you'd get a bloody great range of adjustment like that -- should be equal to a long track. This allows you to balance the leech and foot tension.

But you can also move the ring inboard and outboard! By hauling in one control line and letting out the other. This will be invaluable for sailing off the wind when you need to open the leech -- stop it from curling inward, which I hate so much. This will be even much more important for such a high aspect sail, I guess. Hard on the wind you can bring in the sheeting angle as far as you want. You vary the sheeting angle itself, which you cannot with a track!

I could bring the control lines across the deck, to turning blocks on a stanchion (I guess), and back to the primary windward winch. I'll need clutches back there I guess.

One disadvantage is it will be miles of extra cordage, since you'll need significant purchase (at least 2:1, maybe more) on the control lines. But I guess this is a small price to pay for the other advantages.

And the same system can probably be used to barber haul the regular yankee and staysail sheets

You are only adjusting the height a few inches so 2:1 is only adding a foot or two to the line length.

TheThunderbird · 06-04-2015, 08:33

I am changing the 11mm inner forestay into super-cable textile, even stronger and handier.
Essential for pointing w/o volunteers to accompany the foresail.

Your blade is inefficient downwind... i'd suppose flying the yankee+staysail (on textile hooks)

:-)

It is nice to see i am not the only one with idiosyncrasies... i hate inner-bending clews too, and furling sails btw. The luff Must be a real blade imo :-)

PS I saw TP52class on line, it's a war machine... so i'm puzzled w your description of the coachroof etc... any photo please?

**Dockhead** · 06-04-2015, 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

I am changing the 11mm inner forestay into super-cable textile, even stronger and handier.
Essential for pointing w/o volunteers to accompany the foresail.

Your blade is inefficient downwind... i'd suppose flying the yankee+staysail (on textile hooks)

:-)

It is nice to see i am not the only one with idiosyncrasies... i hate inner-bending clews too, and furling sails btw. The luff Must be a real blade imo :-)

PS I saw TP52class on line, it's a war machine... so i'm puzzled w your description of the coachroof etc... any photo please?

Good lord, I don't have a TP52! Just the spin pole from one! My boat is a Moody 54, not exactly a "war machine"! But very fast and good sailing for a 25 ton cruising boat. I'm just trying to get her to fulfill her potential -- upwind.

The blade will of course be inefficient off the wind, and wherever possible I will change to the yankee. But I need to be able to make the best of it off the wind, since it's pretty tough to change sails of this size underway.

**Dockhead** · 06-04-2015, 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by funjohnson

You are only adjusting the height a few inches so 2:1 is only adding a foot or two to the line length.

So I just did a quick dock walk here in Cowes. None of the Open 60's is in the water, but I did look at a couple of Figaros.

They have the following arrangement:

There is a short, athwartships track on the side deck. The movement of the car on this track is not controlled -- it moves freely. An Antal ring comes out of this car, the height of which is adjusted by a cascade of massive purchase (on this small boat!), I think five or six blocks are involved.

Then, on the side of the coach roof is a pad eye, to which a separate barber hauler is rigged, just forward of the track, with another Antal ring. Here the rig is light with only double purchase.

The way it works is you adjust the height of the ring with the massive purchase rig (because the loads are massive), then you control the inboard-outboard aspect with the barber hauler.

Very elegant.

I can't do anything like that because I don't have space for a track to run athwartships. But I can imagine putting just one pad eye at the spot around the most inboard I would expect to want to sheet (so near where the track was supposed to go). Then put another pad eye on the rail, and from there barber haul the sheet outboardwards if needed.

The only problem with this is that only one padeye will be taking all the load, and the load will actually be magnified if the sheet lead point is hauled out of vertical. Considering the massive strength of the elements of this, this might not be a problem, but I would want a real engineer to check it. The heaviest loads will be when sailing upwind; off the wind the loads fall off.

The line to the main padeye will need a lot of purchase -- it will be under huge loads. And I will need a strong clutch back at the cockpit somewhere. It will need an even bigger cascade than that little Figaro has. Or maybe just triple blocks led to the mast, then back to the side deck via turning block, and more purchase here.

UNCIVILIZED · 06-04-2015, 09:22

Dockhead, I'm done here. You'll get a PM as to the why. And it's a PM only so that you can do a little in terms of saving face here.

Cheechako · 06-04-2015, 09:38

What are they going to do to prevent core saturation for all those track holes? hopefully you have discussed that...

Matt Johnson · 06-04-2015, 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Dockhead, I'm done here. You'll get a PM as to the why. And it's a PM only so that you can do a little in terms of saving face here.

Would it not work for his application?

**Dockhead** · 06-04-2015, 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikereed100

Just to complicate things a bit, have you considered putting that blade on a boom? While creating it's own issues, it would eliminate the need for tracks. We have a blade on a boom and find it easy and simple to control.

Inner forestay would get in the way of a boom!

**Dockhead** · 06-04-2015, 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheechako

What are they going to do to prevent core saturation for all those track holes? hopefully you have discussed that...

That's why I'm using a renowned boatyard rather than trying to do it myself. The thought of water getting into that deck is the stuff of nightmares.

One more advantage of the floating lead system is that it would mean only two holes in the deck, versus twenty or so. Big advantage.

**Dockhead** · 06-04-2015, 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Would it not work for his application?

Not that, but he objected to my having wasted so much of his time working on the tracks solution, then flying off in another direction.

He is absolutely right that I (a) am clueless; and (b) I started to think about it far too late.

I am slowly becoming less clueless, however, thanks to Uncivilized and thanks to everyone else on here.

savoir · 06-04-2015, 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That's why I'm using a renowned boatyard rather than trying to do it myself. The thought of water getting into that deck is the stuff of nightmares.

One more advantage of the floating lead system is that it would mean only two holes in the deck, versus twenty or so. Big advantage.

A padeye big enough to accommodate your loads will have 4 holes meaning 8 holes in total.