Upper and lower shrouds on one chain plate. How to?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Madehn

Cmon now you just have to learn how to handle chotu. He gets upset, he rants, he gets insulting, then he calms down, starts to listen, reconsiders, then moves on. His drama can be more entertaining than 3 wildcats and a Rottweiler in a huge gunnysack. The key is to never take his ranting too seriously. Just smile and step back from the keyboard. Not saying I would want to anchor next to him everyday but I do admire his tenacity. When he gets nasty I just move on to another thread. Although seriously him telling somebody else that they needed to keep THEIR drama in hand was priceless. Had tears running down my face. I really want to see his boat finished. It could be a beautiful thing or a complete POS but I know he has put heart and soul into it. Taunting chotu is like mud wrestling with a pig. At the end you are tired dirty and bleeding and the pig is still in the mud wallow ready for round two. ������. All that said both sides need to grow so thicker skins and remember that replying to a post you disagree with in a nasty manner is absolutely not required.

Ha ha ha ha !

You never really know what people think of you or exactly what you look like from the outside. But this little post had me laughing my ass off this morning. It is funny. It’s probably accurate. Ha ha ha.

thanks for posting it. I really got a kick out of this.

but yeah. It’s basically I don’t think anyone else can understand the stress involved with building a boat. Not unless you’ve done it. And built one like this size. And you weren’t retired when you did it.

so, occasionally the stress just overflows and I let people get to me when they have stupid comments.

and just like you predicted, it has boiled over, all the stress with the rigger has been alleviated because I have now been talking to the actual guy that is doing the rigging on my boat and we figured everything out within a matter of a few minutes.

I really like the guy that is doing the rigging. I will give full details about this place once I leave it. But the guy doing the rigging is absolutely awesome. Everything about this guy is great. He has a can-do attitude. Which I really appreciate.

at first, the office was just trying to charge me some crazy rates without telling me what I was getting for the money. they wouldn’t show me any line items or anything about the work they were doing. Just a price. That was stressful.

The communication from the office was "$15,000 to step the mast". and it didn’t include a ton of stuff. It was just getting the mast vertical, plus 2 shrouds and a forestay. You can see why I was stressed out.

then, the guy that actually does the rigging came out with an invoice and showed me what I was getting, what we were doing, he hadn’t even heard some of the details of the requirements. And once we hashed through that in about 10 minutes, everything has been running great since then. So the stress levels are way down.

Now it’s just a waiting game here. Christmas is getting in the way. It will be closed between Christmas and New Year’s. but come the first week of January, things will be cruising right along.


and don’t anybody worry. None of you have to anchor next to me. Ha ha you know when you look at the Anchorage and there is that boat all the way out at the end? It’s basically out there in the chop and the swells? And you wonder why that crazy guy is all the way out there? Why does he take his dinghy in from way out there? That’s me. So you never have to worry about it. Nobody anchors where I anchor. And I very much keep to myself on the boat. I bring people I know from land life out to the boat. I don’t go around the Anchorage trying to make buddies with everybody. So you are safe. Ha ha.

[MicHughV]

Let's face it, everybody on this planet would be bored to tears, if we were all just the same.
Thank goodness, we are not. We have everything from the wild and crazy one's, that actually do things differently and get things done to the soft spoken and demure, which do nothing. Where you fit on this scale, is a matter of perspective.

Wright brothers " hey, let's build something that flies"
Demure person " you're crazy, everybody knows, people can't fly"
Wright brothers " hold my beer".....

[Chotu]

I'm still getting a good laugh from Madehn's post. Ha ha ha.

so to be completely honest, my boat was really beautiful. It got hit by three hurricanes that were category 3 or higher. Direct hits. And then a lot of really unskilled people wrecked a lot of things on it getting me through the "unable to work with epoxy" and "weak from a heart attack" stuff.

so it has a long way to come back. Beauty is not among its traits right now. It looks awful.

However, it’s a really well designed hull, it's rock solid, doesn't flex and has fantastic performance through the water.

it’s a good platform to continue making into something beautiful again. And of course the interior has never been done. So, there’s a lot of work there. A couple more years of my ridiculous posts. although this stuff is not really areas where I’m going to have as many questions. plumbing, electrical, putting in more hatches, finishing off the place and building cabinetry. That’s all pretty straightforward stuff. just time consuming.

and that’s really the whole point of what’s going on right now. I need to get out on this thing and see if I still like boats and the lifestyle. I spent most of my life on them. Trying to determine if I’m going to invest more time on them, or if it’s time to move to something else. Sailing this boat should help me figure that out.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The idea is that you have three times as much (potential) trouble. It can crack, leak, develop hairline cracks, corrosion etc. in three places instead of just one place.

If you have one big chainplate that is mounted properly, it simply doesn’t fail. If you ever encounter a Sundeer 64, take a close look at those chainplates, the bolts, the bolt pattern etc. Dashew has a chain plate fetish and this is the result

Newer updated technology is usually better, but it appears at least on my Good Old Boat that the Chain Plates etc that were originally installed in 1974 are still doing fine. (after nearly 50 years)

There is some rust residue on some of the bolts though. I plan to replace those when I redo or have the rigging replaced and check the chain plates themselves.

My boat is way over build and all my 8 stays have to do is to hold up the 30' mast with only about 335 sq ft of sail area

I posted that picture of Sean's old boat as proof of these old Bristol 27's quality of build. I believe he updated his stays to Dyneema at one point but not sure when. Looks like he did add a second backstay

Either way probably same chain plates

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by thomm225

the Chain Plates etc that were originally installed in 1974 are still doing fine. (after nearly 50 years)

There is some rust residue on some of the bolts though.

Few riggers would agree that 50yr old plates are doing fine. The only way to be 100% sure is to remove and x-ray. The photo below is an x-ray of a single tiny pinhead sized hole in a shaft, the corrosion seen inside that shaft when it broke is enormous.

As a retired Certified Marine Corrosion tech I've seen it many times ... If there is rust on the bolts there is corrosion in the plates.

[Nicholson58]

In our Camper & Nicholson58 the upper and intermediate meet at a triangular toggle just above the lower spreader. Lower shroud from the base of the lower spreaders is separate and sweeps aft. The combined upper and intermediate single 3/4” diameter cable is fixed between two titanium chain plates. The upper intermediate has its own turnbuckle above the toggle.

Take a hike around the yard and look at other rigs. Ask a rigger for advice.

[Pauls]

Standing rigging is just handling stress. If a single chainplate is strong enough to take the combined loads from several shrouds then it is fine. Each chainplate is a system consisting of the chainplate, its fastenings, and the structure it is attached to. ALL THREE of these need to be strong enough. Any one of these being too weak will result in failure. So this is a system thing consisting of the chainplate, fastenings and hull structure.

One other point is that "strong enough" takes into account fatigue. The fatigue strength of all the materials must be taken into account if the system is to be long term reliable.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Few riggers would agree that 50yr old plates are doing fine. The only way to be 100% sure is to remove and x-ray. The photo below is an x-ray of a single tiny pinhead sized hole in a shaft, the corrosion seen inside that shaft when it broke is enormous.

As a retired Certified Marine Corrosion tech I've seen it many times ... If there is rust on the bolts there is corrosion in the plates.

Thanks.

I'll be checking the bolts and chain plates before the new rigging goes on so I'll see how they look at that time.

If necessary they should be that hard to replace.

[soerencarlsen]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I swear I have seen this somewhere before.

Has anyone seen the technique for connecting upper and lower shroud to a single toggle on a single chain plate?

This is kind of an urgent question I’m at the rigger.


Trying to figure this out in order to proceed.

No they are not fly by night. Yes they are very good at what they do. They have suggested I have to put in another chain plate. But I have seen this somewhere. Where the lowers and the uppers are somehow connected to the single chain plate. I just can’t seem to find an example of it.

Does this drawing make sense to you?

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by soerencarlsen

Does this drawing make sense to you?

Nice design - that puts the loads right in line with the loops* built into the deck/hull.

*Sorry I don't know the correct term for these. On a hinge that might be called a knuckle - but rarely do terra firma terms translate to the sea!

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by soerencarlsen

Does this drawing make sense to you?

No, that won’t work. The plate will align with the direction of the shroud, but each shroud has a different direction. This will put a sideways load on the fork terminals, which isn’t allowed.

I would split it in the middle, making two plates out of it.

disclaimer: I am an EE, not a mechanical engineer.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

No, that won’t work. The plate will align with the direction of the shroud, but each shroud has a different direction. This will put a sideways load on the fork terminals, which isn’t allowed.

I would split it in the middle, making two plates out of it.

disclaimer: I am an EE, not a mechanical engineer.

I agree the only way this will work properly is if the forces are mono-planar so the chain plate pin would need to be on a radial axis pointing to the mast and it is not. The two shrouds at different angels will induce a twist into to articulated plate. It may work if it is over engineered just because it big enough to resist the twisting or the shackle pins are loose enough to allow articulation.


You could as Jedi suggests make a split, bend the plate and re-weld it such that the angles are more closely matched.


This a Kurt Hughes design assuming the chain plate anchors are to spec what did he propose for the connections?

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Few riggers would agree that 50yr old plates are doing fine. The only way to be 100% sure is to remove and x-ray. The photo below is an x-ray of a single tiny pinhead sized hole in a shaft, the corrosion seen inside that shaft when it broke is enormous.

As a retired Certified Marine Corrosion tech I've seen it many times ... If there is rust on the bolts there is corrosion in the plates.

Looking at my 49 year old chain plates and bolts again today I must say that I'm not too worried about them.

As I said I do plan to replace the bolts and inspect the chain plates in the next years or two

Also in the last 11 years, I have sailed in 35 knot winds, been at anchor in winds to 45 knots, and 60 knots at the dock

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Looking at my 49 year old chain plates and bolts again today I must say that I'm not too worried about them.

As I said I do plan to replace the bolts and inspect the chain plates in the next years or two

Also in the last 11 years, I have sailed in 35 knot winds, been at anchor in winds to 45 knots, and 60 knots at the dock

Painting stainless steel also shortens their life span.

"stainless steel must be oxidized in order to form a passive film; the more aggressive the environment the more oxidizing agents are required. The maintenance of passivity consumes oxidizing species at the metal surface, so a continuous supply of oxidizing agent to the surface is required."

SS can be painted but the paint must exclude all salts and moisture. You have a chance of success with this (for a while) if the SS was acid etched and a 2 part epoxy paint was used. If the paint was just what was around the bileg that day ... I would not trust those plates.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Painting stainless steel also shortens their life span.

"stainless steel must be oxidized in order to form a passive film; the more aggressive the environment the more oxidizing agents are required. The maintenance of passivity consumes oxidizing species at the metal surface, so a continuous supply of oxidizing agent to the surface is required."

SS can be painted but the paint must exclude all salts and moisture. You have a chance of success with this (for a while) if the SS was acid etched and a 2 part epoxy paint was used. If the paint was just what was around the bileg that day ... I would not trust those plates.

Paint has been there for 11 years that I know of.

Not sure how long it was there before as I never met the PO.

I'll see how everything looks in a year or two before I attempt any sort of distance cruising, but I doubt I'll be in anything worse than I already have with this boat.

If I sail over to the Bahamas, I'll definitely pick a nice week in June or so.

Same with going on the outside coming back North around the Outer Banks will only occur with a good weather window in Summer

Biggest problem will be being stuck on the boat for a few days at a time.

The rest I can handle.