Use old standing rigging? Ever had a failure?

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by double u

cut a perfectly looking backstay eye-swage off on a feeling 446 because the owner wanted an insulator fitted & discovered that 3 of the interior wires had broken inside the terminal. the little pieces fell out when I turned the terminal upside down to throw it in the trash- now I don't know how anybody would be able to discover these 3 broken strand during an inspection, never mind how experienced a rigger he is...
that people have their standing rigging for I-don't-know-how-many-years without replacing proofes exactly nothing! anectotal evidence in the extreme!

Yes. I don't understand the rigging inspection thing, they are limited by their eyes.

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Yes. I don't understand the rigging inspection thing, they are limited by their eyes.

That's the thing with SS. It often looks great- until it isn't...

I also worry about the quality of the SS wire to replace my rigging. It seems that there are a few high-quality brands that offer some confidence, but I suppose one would want to see a certificate to be certain of the material/quality.

I replaced some chainplates (external) and had them made with certified 316L, but I had to insist on them providing proof.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Yes. I don't understand the rigging inspection thing, they are limited by their eyes.

They could use dye penetrant or eddy current. Good dye penetrant requires a powerful black light and would be much easier to do at night. Both methods require a crack to be open to the surface though.
I suspect though that many rigging inspections are more of an educated persons opinion based on a visual inspection.

[Connemara]

As far as I know, Connemara (1982 Mirage 27 in Toronto) still has her original standing rig. OTOH, she comes out of the water for six months of every year and the mast comes off, so that's probably only about 16 years of full time use. Just the same, I don't see any rust or strand breaks when I check it in the spring.

Connemara

[a64pilot]

It was I think about 2005 or so and I was one of the guest speakers at a symposium on aircraft fatigue.
Of course the FAA had their fatigue expert there as well and he gave a good presentation with good PowerPoint slides and all, but I disagreed with his assertion that he kept repeating, that everything fatigues, it’s only a matter of time until anything breaks from fatigue.
This symposium was specifically about wing spars.
So I asked him what was the fatigue life limit on a C-172 spar? He started dancing around that, cause you see the C-172 has an externally braced wing and the main spar is overbuilt, so it is not being fatigued, the loads aren’t high enough, it’s wing spar will never fail from fatigue, unless maybe weakened enough from corrosion first.

I’d suspect that at least some of our boats maybe have oversized rigging, and especially the ones that are just day sailed and never go out in bad weather and are not raced or pushed very hard, their rigging may not be being fatigued, it may be that corrosion will be the limiting factor as to life limit?
I’m just trying to understand how there can be so many out liers, or why there can be so many boats who have rigging decades beyond expected life limit and not have lost their rigs?

[IdoraKeeper]

Rig design matters. My rigging was original. Only two pieces, forestay and bobstay are solo components. They take a lot of load. They are oversized but were replaced anyway. The rest were inspected and declared sound. There is a ton of windage to this rig but only one way to lose the whole thing.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Copacabana

That's the thing with SS. It often looks great- until it isn't...

I also worry about the quality of the SS wire to replace my rigging. It seems that there are a few high-quality brands that offer some confidence, but I suppose one would want to see a certificate to be certain of the material/quality.

I replaced some chainplates (external) and had them made with certified 316L, but I had to insist on them providing proof.

Good call on demanding proof. 316 looks just like 304, until the 304 corrodes in saltwater and fails. 317 has even more molybdenum, but hard to find.

There is a company called Koslow that sells SS test kits, which cost $400. However, you have to get the $700 model for wire rope, as there is no flat surface to easily test. For a few hundred more bucks, I suppose you could just get titanium chain plates.

It doesn't really seem cost effective to do your own testing, but I suppose even an MTR certificate can be a fake. Just because you buy rigging from a "reputable source" does not mean that guy in turn purchased from a reputable source.

I've see enough rusted "stainless steel" to make me wonder...

[hellosailor]

To get fast proof for your own eyes, hit the stainless with an angle grinder and watch the sparks. The 304 will have split ends on the sparks, the 316 will not.
( See https://www.finishing.com/60/60.shtml etcetara.)

Pretty hard to forge a spark test.(G)

"Spark" tests can tell a lot about many metals.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

To get fast proof for your own eyes, hit the stainless with an angle grinder and watch the sparks. The 304 will have split ends on the sparks, the 316 will not.
( See https://www.finishing.com/60/60.shtml etcetara.)

Pretty hard to forge a spark test.(G)

"Spark" tests can tell a lot about many metals.

Yeah, I've heard of the spark test. My concern goes beyond testing for molybdenum. (316 vs 304) I wonder about the basics- chromium and nickel too. I swear I have used "stainless steel" wire rope that could NOT have been much more than plain steel with a touch of nickel at best.

[hellosailor]

With scrap metal being shipped all over the world and smelted again in all sorts of unlikely places...

Probably the most garish quality control failure I've heard of was 30(+?) years ago with some good name brand tableware that was made from "the usual" 18-8 stainless steel sourced from a Mexican supplier. Who accidentally bought and mixed in some hospital medical scrap including, yes, highly radioactive material. There was quite a fuss over trying to recall all the tableware that might have contained that.

Run a geiger counter over your rigging yet?

[zeehag]

i follow the older 20 yr rule, which was alive n well when i first bought my first boat in 1990. i still follow the 20 yr rule. i check my cables frequently for barbs, but i replace every 20 yrs as i learned to do long ago. i donot follow sheep but the words of my intelligent merchant marine captain uncle who taught us well.
this formosa was re rigged in 2004, by my boat virgin neighbor from whose cold hands i wrenched this boat, and i will re rig it in 2024. IFF i am still alive, and IFF it needs it.
i find chainplates and tangs more important as they fail first. seems the alleged rigger in lost angeles who did the re rig failed to replace any of these--charged 10,000 usd for only cable replacement. yes i replace these while i refit entire boat here in mazatlan.

friend bought a boat i sailed in gom, we suffered rig fail in dry tortugas. we were lucky the turnbuckle failed with some threads remaining., so we could re affix it without new parts until we returned to slidell.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I’d suspect that at least some of our boats maybe have oversized rigging, and especially the ones that are just day sailed and never go out in bad weather and are not raced or pushed very hard, their rigging may not be being fatigued, it may be that corrosion will be the limiting factor as to life limit?
I’m just trying to understand how there can be so many out liers, or why there can be so many boats who have rigging decades beyond expected life limit and not have lost their rigs?

I was thinking the same thing. A boat sailed hard every day say in off shore races or long cruises will have more fatigue in one year than a docked boat sailed a few weekends a month/a short season in 30 years. Especially if it's hauled out each Fall with mast unstepped.

I think we should be realistic and not just follow blindly some rules of thumb meant for totally different situations. Alghough IMO periodic inspections should be done just in case or after one instance of a wire barb noticed.

[Group9]

The only experience I've had with rigging failure was a dismasting on a delivery in only 25 knots of wind.

It was the worst looking rigging I had ever seen when we inspected it prior to the delivery, but we wrong,y convinced ourselves it would last four more days. One of the turnbuckles on the admidships stays gave way. All in all, I was not surprised.

I agree that corrosion and amount of heavy use probably matter more than time. But, both of those are a lot harder to quantify than time.

I'm kind of in the 20 years normal use category. After that, replace or start trying to stay out of heavy weather. The bad part is, a mast coming down is really frightening, from personal experience. And, more than capable of killing you.