Use Spinnaker Pole on Genoa

[slug]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Umm, Slug, this does require that one has a code Z on board, and lots of us don't. I don't, and I strongly suspect that the OP does not either. Having one might change my ideas, but I'm not inclined to spend the >10,000 bucks it would take to find out.

So, for the time being I'll just continue to use my 120, poled out when required, and not buy another sail for passages and worry about when to change up or down. I gave up sail changing at sea (or at anchor for that matter) when I was around 60... a long time ago.

To reiterate, I've not found this practice to have all the downsides that you claim, and see no need to change. My advice to t he OP reflects this opinion.

Jim

The code zero is a remarkable sail and one of the best advances is sailing

You may stay stuck in your ways

Others may benefit from my experience

[conachair]

Originally Posted by stormalong

A big advantage of using a spinnaker pole is to pass the jib sheet through the pole end and fix the pole in place. :wink

And it helps with chafe on the sheet if you soft shackle a snatch block into the pole end and put the sheet through that.

[SVHarmonie]

Originally Posted by stormalong

As a ketch you probably have a small foretriangle. My cutter rig has half the sail area in the fore triangle

So you apparently assume. But that's not true.

Main Sail: 35 sq Metres
Genoa: 67 sq Metres
Mizzen: 19 sq Metres
-------------------------
Total: 121 sq Metres

As you can see, significantly more than half my sail area is carried forward of the mast. When I have my downwind sails poled out, I carry over 135 sq metres of headsail. A lot. Keeps my speed up downwind even in 10 knots of true wind.

And poling out those two 67 sq metre sails works a charm, no matter what anybody says. And with the right setup it's easy to handle long poles. We never have to pick up a pole, just one end. All the rest is done with lines. Piece of cake, even for a shorthanded crew.

There are many ways to sail downwind, some easier than others. I really don't care what method other people use, but to disparage a method that they have no useful experience with just spreads bad information.

I have thousands of miles under this rig, I know it works.

[Journeyman]

I think its interesting that the noted blue water sailor John Kretschmer does telescoping whisker pole ads for the major mfg of whisker poles, but when I contacted that mfg they recommended to me a fixed length spinnaker pole for passage making to pole out my 110%.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by felizcortez

I have a fixed length Spinnaker pole on my tartan 37 that is mounted on the deck. My Genoa is a 130. Can I use the fixed length Spinnaker pole to pole out the Genoa or do I need an adjustable length whisker pole?

I have a asymmetrical Spinnaker on the boat so the pole hasn't seen any use currently, but I would like to use it to pole out the Genoa if possible.

My old San Juan 28 came with a spinnaker pole and I often used it as a whisker pole...no problem. That was a great boat.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[slug]

Originally Posted by Journeyman

I think its interesting that the noted blue water sailor John Kretschmer does telescoping whisker pole ads for the major mfg of whisker poles, but when I contacted that mfg they recommended to me a fixed length spinnaker pole for passage making to pole out my 110%.

That’s a good move

In general I like the longest pole that can fit the deck geometry , without overcrowding walkways

[hpeer]

OK, stepping up and admiring my ignorance.

What imis the difference between a spinnaker pole and a whisker pole?

From the discussion I’m deducing:

A spinnaker pole is a fixed length pole roughly equal to the J dimension.

A whisker pole is a collapsible spinnaker pole that can be longer or shorter than the J dimension.
————-

44’ LOD
49’ LOA with sprit.
40,000 lbs.

My “pole” which I’ve never used it 13’ minimum and about 21’ full extension. My J is about 20’.
My boom is close and to 22’ long.

I’ve a 1,400nm journey coming up, mostly light wind. I want to get there this year. Looking forward to learning.

[donradcliffe]

A whisker pole does not have to be collapsible.

Race boats use oversized spinnaker poles, even though there is a rating penalty.

Spinnaker poles tend to be stronger than whisker poles, but I managed to fold mine when the genoa went aback as the autopilot let the boat reach up on a wave.

The solution is to roll more genoa in, not use a stronger spinnaker pole. The next weakest link is the mast. Don't ask how I know this.

[slug]

Originally Posted by hpeer

OK, stepping up and admiring my ignorance.

What imis the difference between a spinnaker pole and a whisker pole?

From the discussion I’m deducing:

A spinnaker pole is a fixed length pole roughly equal to the J dimension.

A whisker pole is a collapsible spinnaker pole that can be longer or shorter than the J dimension.

My book is close and to 22’ long.

44’ LOD
49’ LOA with sprit.
40,000 lbs.
I want to get there this year.

My “pole” which I’ve never used it 13’ minimum and about 21’ full extension. My J is about 20’.

I’ve a 1,400nm journey coming up, mostly light wind. Looking forward to learning.

How far off am I?

A spi pole is typically 100 percent J measurement

A whisker pole is very long , 140 percent J

This is why they must be telescoping

The object is to pole the headsail out so that the sail is perpendicular to the yacht centerline

[SVHarmonie]

Originally Posted by hpeer

A spinnaker pole is a fixed length pole roughly equal to the J dimension.

A whisker pole is a collapsible spinnaker pole that can be longer or shorter than the J dimension.

This is almost always right. It is tough doing a dip gybe with a pole longer than this, and an end-for-end gybe is tough on a big boat.

It gets confusing, because people confuse "spinnaker poles" (which are used on symmetrical spinnakers) with the poles they use to pole out their various flavors of asymmetrical spinnakers. These have more in common with whisker poles.

Originally Posted by hpeer

A whisker pole is a collapsible spinnaker pole that can be longer or shorter than the J dimension.

This is true, although if you wanted a whisker pole that was the same as your J, you certainly COULD use a spinnaker pole. Rumors aside, there is no significant construction detail that is unique to one or the other.

Rigging a long pole can be a challenge if you have to manhandle it... especially in a seaway. Here is the procedure we used on my old boat, that had poles of similar dimension to what you have, starting with the jib furled. Easily done by two people, and neither of them need the strength of a typical bow ape!

1. Lift the outboard end of the pole onto the bow pulpit, and lash it in place.
   
2. Attach the mast end to its fitting,
   
3. Rig the pole control lines. (fore and after guys, topping lift, and downhaul) Until you have done it a few times, getting all the line geometry right might take a bit of thinking. Dedicated, color coded lines with trim marks really help here.
   
4. Put the slack jib sheet in the outboard end of the pole.
   
5. Lift the outboard end of the pole with the topping lift, and give it a push back, pulling on the afterguy. The foreguy is pre-tied to a mark, and stops the pole before it hits the shrounds.
   
6. Adjust the other control lines to square off the pole (It really helps if you mark them once you have it worked out).
   
7. Raise (or unfurl) the jib, and sheet in.

There are other good ways of doing it (The Pardy's describe one in their books), and you'll work out what's best for you and your boat. The key is to have the pole fixed in place without the sail so you can douse the sail in a squall and worry about the pole later.

[sailormed]

The boat pictured in the answer of slug (post 2) is the boat Flyer of Connie van Rietschoten, the only sailor to have won the Whitbread twice!

[PNWSalmon]

Originally Posted by Journeyman

I think its interesting that the noted blue water sailor John Kretschmer does telescoping whisker pole ads for the major mfg of whisker poles, but when I contacted that mfg they recommended to me a fixed length spinnaker pole for passage making to pole out my 110%.

Could you share the reason they gave for this?

[SteveSadler]

A standard pole length is your J dimension. If yours is shorter it's not ideal, but will still work. We usually attach it to the bowline of the genoa sheet or a seperate loop tied to the clue while furled. Then we unfurl the genny to windward. This eliminates the need for a fore and after guy, topping lift and downhaul. We can also jibe the pole by furling, dipping the pole and unfurling on the other tack.

[roverhi]

On a a 15 day mostly DDW sail to Hawaii poled out the jib most of the way. Started out with the full 135% genoa poled out with a whisker pole to about 18' on my 13.75% 'J' boat. The sail set very well with the extended pole presented the most area to the wind. Unfortunately at 0 dark 30 on the next moonless heavily overcast night the pole pretzeled. Got the pole back on board by furling the sail and switched to my 16' penalty spinnaker pole. Unfurled 3/4 or so of the 135% and all was well for the next 12 days. Only sail trim was a gybe at about day 10.

The whisker pole had been showing some flexing but seemed to be holding up well. Don't know why the pole bent. Boat was at the max size for the Pole manufacturer's recommendation but the boat had a relatively small 'J' for its length. Boat wasn't rolling much at all so wasn't concerned about dipping the pole. Still with the typically low cut 135% genoa, the clew wasn't that far off the water. I was sailing solo so asleep when the pole bent and can't rule out that the pole dipped in the water bending it.

What was interesting was what I discovered when rebuilding the pole. The line extending system relied on one pop riveted pad eye to keep it extended. There was no way this pole was designed for the compression forces of a spinnaker and the builder clearly states that. If you are going to submit a whisker pole to the high compression forces generated by spinnaker on a close reach you are living on borrowed time. I'd bought the pole used so can't say if the pole had been used with a spinnaker but the hardware had definitely been abused. Highly recommend that anyone going off shore carry a back up spinnaker pole if using an extendable whisker pole as primary for poling out a headsail. The back up over 'J' length spinnaker pole saved my butt.

Another thing about polling out a genoa, the clew at full extension isn't that far off the water and could be prone to dipping. If your boat is a roller, doubt that you'd ever want to pole out a genoa at full extension. Set the genoa partially furled where rolling won't be such a danger.

[slug]

Originally Posted by roverhi

On a a 15 day mostly DDW sail to Hawaii poled out the jib most of the way. Started out with the full 135% genoa poled out with a whisker pole to about 18' on my 13.75% 'J' boat. The sail set very well with the extended pole presented the most area to the wind. Unfortunately at 0 dark 30 on the next moonless heavily overcast night the pole pretzeled. Got the pole back on board by furling the sail and switched to my 16' penalty spinnaker pole. Unfurled 3/4 or so of the 135% and all was well for the next 12 days. Only sail trim was a gybe at about day 10.

The whisker pole had been showing some flexing but seemed to be holding up well. Don't know why the pole bent. Boat was at the max size for the Pole manufacturer's recommendation but the boat had a relatively small 'J' for its length. Boat wasn't rolling much at all so wasn't concerned about dipping the pole. Still with the typically low cut 135% genoa, the clew wasn't that far off the water. I was sailing solo so asleep when the pole bent and can't rule out that the pole dipped in the water bending it.

What was interesting was what I discovered when rebuilding the pole. The line extending system relied on one pop riveted pad eye to keep it extended. There was no way this pole was designed for the compression forces of a spinnaker and the builder clearly states that. If you are going to submit a whisker pole to the high compression forces generated by spinnaker on a close reach you are living on borrowed time. I'd bought the pole used so can't say if the pole had been used with a spinnaker but the hardware had definitely been abused. Highly recommend that anyone going off shore carry a back up spinnaker pole if using an extendable whisker pole as primary for poling out a headsail. The back up over 'J' length spinnaker pole saved my butt.

Another thing about polling out a genoa, the clew at full extension isn't that far off the water and could be prone to dipping. If your boat is a roller, doubt that you'd ever want to pole out a genoa at full extension. Set the genoa partially furled where rolling won't be such a danger.

A long pole sharpens the sheeting angle and overloads the pole with compression

Open up the sheet angle by moving the Genoa sheet leed car aft and rigging your pole guy as far aft as possible

Many seaman move the forguy aft and to windward on the foredeck to better generate leach tension and not overload the pole with even more compression