Using an Assy Spinnaker

[slug]

Originally Posted by Joli

Reaching, we simply run the tack line through the leeward chock to the bow cleat.
Going deep we have to use the pole to rotate the tack to weather just like a sym kite.
We use a sock and will drop it for jibes, we're not racing anymore.
Our biggest fear is wrapping it around the headstay when the boat rolls.
Usually it's just my wife and I so we tend to pull it down when the breeze is around 22 true.

Yes Indeed

Seamanship means you fly the spinnaker and a headsail simultaneously to avoid headstay wrap

This is particularly important on a broad reach

Another issue with the spin snuffer on a mast head rigged boat is a crowded masthead

This masthead traffic jam wedges the snuffer bucket against the headstay , more specifically the top roller furling headstay and swivel

Be alert

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Joli

Reaching, we simply run the tack line through the leeward chock to the bow cleat.
Going deep we have to use the pole to rotate the tack to weather just like a sym kite.
We use a sock and will drop it for jibes, we're not racing anymore.
Our biggest fear is wrapping it around the headstay when the boat rolls.
Usually it's just my wife and I so we tend to pull it down when the breeze is around 22 true.

[bensolomon]

I have a sock and an ATN tacker with my Asym. Allows me to fly and manage it single handed.

[Auspicious]

Oh my. Context: I raced foredeck for 35 years before I just couldn’t stay ahead of the young bucks anymore. I got demoted to AHITB. I have a heavy asymmetric sail and a light symmetric on Auspicious. I fly both singlehanded.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

1. ….

1. Great. I suspect you’ll want a horn cleat. Something more robust than a cam cleat.

2. Bowsprit is helpful. Mine is stainless steel just about a meter that is pinned on the foredeck and through the secondary bow roller.

3. Tack line definitely needs to be adjustable. I launch the kite with the tack line strapped in and ease it when the sail is up and drawing. With care you can get the sail to rotate to windward and increase projected area. You may still need to put a reef in the main to reduce wind shadow.

3. (second 3.) Sheet size/weight depends on the sail. If you choose a heavy cruising chute bigger sheets are nice – good hand feel if nothing else.

4. Yes. My turning blocks attach to the same fittings as running backstays. Strops to aft mooring cleats would work. Beware over use. Jack lines?

5. I have poled the asymmetric out running deep offshore. I’ve decided the effort is not worth it. I just drop the main. I use the same pole as my symmetric which is longer than J.

6. Ah. Religion. I have both. The turtle is really just for storage for me. My sail locker is under the v-berth with a big hatch overhead. I launch through the hatch. I added a snuffer based on strong recommendations from a friend. I’m not convinced it really helps. Granted a lot of foredeck experience may color my opinion. It does take some time pressure off launch and recovery but the total effort is probably more with the snuffer than without.

6. (second) Let your sailmaker weigh in here and do what s/he says.

Originally Posted by dougweibel

You may want to check out the ATN Tacker as a temporary or permanent solution for the tack point. I had one on my last boat, but no spinnaker, so only used it to hang a hammock on deck. Seemed like it could be used effectively for its intended purpose.

No. No no no no. This is one of those things that seems like a good idea but is not. Properly trimmed (mostly tack line adjustment) you can get the luff of an asymmetric four (on my 40’) to six feet (on Dockhead’s 54’) to windward. That’s a lot of projected area to give up.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

So the pole should come around to leeward as you sail deeper, right? And should come forward when you head up? At what approximate angles does this happen? With an A2, how high do you think I can sail, considering I have a very long pole?

Pole comes back to windward as you sail deeper. Forward, to leeward, as you head up. Put a piece of yarn in the middle of the pole and keep that flying perpendicular to the pole. You can sail pretty high but that doesn’t mean you should. In light air you may get a benefit up to beam reach. When winds get above 12 kts you’re probably better going back to genoa.

Offshore with an asymmetric drag from hitting a wave and then accelerating can cause you to sail out from under your wind. You’ll generally want to fly an asymmetric strapped in a little tighter than you would a symmetric or with a bigger crew.

[thinwater]

I didn't see any mention of tweakers. Just like moving the genoa leads forward and back, the same happens with chutes as the AW angle changes. See state and rolling are also factors. Generally these are rigged about where the mid-ships cleats are, and temporaries can be rigged to those cleats and back to an unused winch.

[mikedefieslife]

An ATN tacker was mentioned earlier, you can make something similar from an old fender and a bit of dyneema. This is what I use to run my symmetric spinnaker as an asymmetric. What is doesn't do is give you the ability to move the tack windward.

[donradcliffe]

Cam cleats on the halyard aren't going to do the job on your sized boat.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

An ATN tacker was mentioned earlier, you can make something similar from an old fender and a bit of dyneema. This is what I use to run my symmetric spinnaker as an asymmetric. What is doesn't do is give you the ability to move the tack windward.

Like this? little bit of "Blue Peter" but it works. Some one else liked the idea I posted on YBW about 4 years ago and copied it, then produced a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFYraOAIcW8

Having sailed with Dockhead, he does have a huge spinnaker pole on deck that will take some time to rig even in calm conditions. Perhaps the better approach would be to do it in smaller bites, like eating a biscuit. Tricky to do it all in one mouthful, easier is smaller nibbles.

1. Buy sail plus snuffer becuase the snuffer just makes downing what will be a huge sail so much easier short handed.

2. Buy 12mm double braid sheets because they are cheap, but need to fit those big winches or possibly the secondaries. This sail won't need the tension cranking on like a jib going to windward. Indeed the sail will fill and move flutter about in the breeze.

3. Make home made ATN.

4. Test it out in calm conditions, I am still learning and playing with ours, but it makes a significant difference compared to the 140% genoa. Quite surprised me the first time, well pleased, but fearful of it getting away in winds over 15 knots, hence the snuffer.

My fender version and Dockheads yacht. I have mine rigged so the tack goes through the ATN spinnaker quick release, down to a eye bolt in the bow and back to a bow deck cleat. I keep meaning to extend it and take it back to the cockpit so I can fiddle with the height of the tack to change the sail shape.

Pete

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Pete7

1. Buy sail plus snuffer becuase the snuffer just makes downing what will be a huge sail so much easier short handed.

As I noted earlier, the snuffer doesn't really make things easier. It just reduces time intensity - you can take longer to get the work done.

As the sail gets bigger, the winds are up, and we get older it helps to lay down on the foredeck, brace your feet on the toerails, and haul away.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

As the sail gets bigger, the winds are up, and we get older it helps to lay down on the foredeck, brace your feet on the toerails, and haul away.

Ha, thanks but no, been there with hank on sails, but I was young, the bruises didn't hurt so much and the blood washed away with the next green wave.

Today, blow the tack, pull down the suffer and drop the lot to the deck. In 20 seconds the whole thing is down single handed.

Pete

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Today, blow the tack, pull down the suffer and drop the lot to the deck. In 20 seconds the whole thing is down single handed.

Ah - no. At a minimum the sail goes outboard and you get dragged toward the lifeline. Better to ease the sheet to the bitter end and haul the snuffer down.

No blood and no bruises here.

Blowing the tack makes a ton of sense for a letterbox drop or under the boom.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Ah - no. At a minimum the sail goes outboard and you get dragged toward the lifeline. Better to ease the sheet to the bitter end and haul the snuffer down.

No blood and no bruises here.

Blowing the tack makes a ton of sense for a letterbox drop or under the boom.

How do you do this short handed, eg, wife steering and me on the foredeck? What must not happen is to have the whole lot go overboard and not keen on dropping a sail down the hatch letterbox style. I prefer salt to stay on the outside.

If you blow the tack the sail collapses outside of the rails level with the mast but it won't touch the water. If you let the sheet go to the bitter end the sail can still fill, you won't pull that down easily and who controls the halyard? even more of a problem single handed, hence snuffer for me, but each to their own choice.

Pete

[Joli]

We never blow the tack or the sheet, if the sail gets away from the boat it can be difficult to get it under control. Better to be shy to the main but again be very careful not to wrap the kite around the headstay.
Hauling down the sock can be difficult if the breeze is up, try to be shy to the main but be careful about wrapping around the headstay.
Setting and dousing sails downwind when the boat is rolling around can be difficult but having a larger lighter sail in those conditions can provide big speed benefits and make it a much more comfortable boat. We can make 9~10 knots with 8 apparent if we can pull the AWA to 90~100 from 130~150.
So an assy kite is a nice addition to your downwind sail plan.
Good luck and have fun with it!

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Pete7

How do you do this short handed, eg, wife steering and me on the foredeck? What must not happen is to have the whole lot go overboard and not keen on dropping a sail down the hatch letterbox style. I prefer salt to stay on the outside.

If you blow the tack the sail collapses outside of the rails level with the mast but it won't touch the water. If you let the sheet go to the bitter end the sail can still fill, you won't pull that down easily and who controls the halyard? even more of a problem single handed, hence snuffer for me, but each to their own choice.

With snuffer: no matter what you do the sail goes away from the boat. Blowing the tack means time becomes an issue - the sail is outboard to leeward and wind shifts can make things uncertain. Easing the sheet enough so you can collapse the sail with the snuffer means you have all three corners under control. You can always back up and try again. If you've reefed the main for airflow throw off the reef(s) first.

I do this singlehanded with the autopilot driving. In that respect time is a factor again. Watchkeeping of course.

No snuffer. Letterbox or under the boom depends on more than anything else on whether you have end-boom sheeting (as God intended) or mid-boom. Mid-boom drives you to letterbox. Again, autopilot drives, blow the tack, walk aft, stand in the cockpit with the halyard under your foot and haul on the sheet. I'm 60 and not in great shape and I can still do that on a boat with halyards at the mast - I run the halyard to the cockpit with a snatch block.

I am 100% with you on keeping salt and water out of the boat. I just haul the sail into the cockpit, shove it in a sail bag or turtle, and sort things out later. Offshore with crew one person on foredeck and one in the forward cabin with the berth open to the sail locker and drop straight into the turtle. I'm usually the one below as 1. I'm fussy about salt and 2. I've stuffed a lot of chutes and am still fast.

Time is ALWAYS a factor. The line from Captain Ron of "Today people! TODAY!" makes me laugh. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Get the thing down and in the bag. I'm okay with extra time getting ready and reviewing plans and answering questions, but once we get going then GO.

[slug]

On large yachts I always use the Genoa to launch and retrieve the snuffer

Choose a broad reaching course , sheet the Genoa in hard , upwind trim

The hard, over-trimmed Genoa creates a large lee.... the snuffer then easily goes up and comes down .....free of windage , in the lee of the Genoa

Working with a snuffer while bald headed Is a fools game

Another tip is to use a snatch block near the asymmetric tack

The snuffer downhaul line goes thru this snatch block

You don’t pull down hand over hand ...,you run aft with the line

You can developer much more pulling power with your legs , running aft with downhaul

Additionally, if even more power and speed is needed a second crew can join in , grab the downhaul ....while avoiding a multi crew, elbows flying, traffic jam at the stem.