Using an Assy Spinnaker

[Joli]

Originally Posted by slug

On large yachts I always use the Genoa to launch and retrieve the snuffer

Choose a broad reaching course , sheet the Genoa in hard , upwind trim

The hard, over-trimmed Genoa creates a large lee.... the snuffer then easily goes up and comes down .....free of windage , in the lee of the Genoa

Working with a snuffer while bald headed Is a fools game

Another tip is to use a snatch block near the asymmetric tack

The snuffer downhaul line goes thru this snatch block

You don’t pull down hand over hand ...,you run aft with the line

You can developer much more pulling power with your legs , running aft with downhaul

Additionally, if even more power and speed is needed a second crew can join in , grab the downhaul ....while avoiding a multi crew, elbows flying, traffic jam at the stem.

We need to start doing this, driving to not wrap the kite is not easy and the load is substantial. Thanks!

[dfelsent]

I’m another in the no snuffer camp. At least when I was single handing a Sabre 38 with a symmetrical chute.

Just more weight aloft and things to go wrong.

You have sails that can blanket the spinnaker. Main and jib. Get it behind the main. Letter box if you need to when the breeze is up.

One thing I learned about spinnakers and forestays. The wrap seems to happen when the chute is too close to the boat and the main is out. The vortex off the main spins the chute around. I have found that gybing makes the chute spin the other way and unwrap itself.

Another cheap trick that help avoid wraps is keeping the main over trimmed when in the downwind part of the gybe.

Another is depowering the chute by lowering the clews and easing them forward. That also helped reduce death rolls. I would guess that on an assym moving the lead forward will de power the top as well. Someone with more assym experience should weigh in here, I’d like to know.

Something else I learned solo racing. When it was blowing 20 and I needed to gybe the chute 5 miles was about the minimum. A takedown and jib hoist was three miles.

Time is your friend. Slow and early and cautious is fast. Rushing is slow.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by slug

On large yachts I always use the Genoa to launch and retrieve the snuffer

I don't agree. Too much unnecessary heel which makes footing less certain. I use the main to blanket the chute.

Originally Posted by slug

Choose a broad reaching course , sheet the Genoa in hard , upwind trim

The hard, over-trimmed Genoa creates a large lee.... the snuffer then easily goes up and comes down .....free of windage , in the lee of the Genoa

Which (the genoa) you have to work around with part of the sail to windward and the snuffer to leeward, plus the friction of the (probably wet) sheet along the leeward side of the genoa.

Originally Posted by slug

Working with a snuffer while bald headed Is a fools game

Disagree. Jib up during chute evolutions is a racing tactic with good sized crews. Short-handed it just adds things to go wrong, especially if you can't/won't/don't move fast.

Originally Posted by slug

You don’t pull down hand over hand ...,you run aft with the line

Heeled over from an over-trimmed genoa and both hands engaged with the snuffer downhaul you're going to send a 60 year old cruiser running down the deck? No way, no how. Sitting down or lying down and pulling the snuffer down is exactly the use case where the snuffer excels. It's one of the few benefits of a snuffer. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo

Notes:

spinnaker rigged outside everything

ATN pimps their Tacker which I dislike

hoist bareheaded

sleeve raised while seated

I prefer running the tack line aft but if you do use a Tacker it doesn't matter as much as you lose adjustment anyway

main overtrimmed sailing to avoid wind shadow

I don't usually release the tack but these guys are smart and it is their product - I like having the sail under full control

again, seated position for douse

Originally Posted by slug

Additionally, if even more power and speed is needed a second crew can join in , grab the downhaul ....while avoiding a multi crew, elbows flying, traffic jam at the stem.

If you can't pull the sock down pretty easily by yourself something is wrong and you need to stop and figure out what it is.

Originally Posted by dfelsent

Time is your friend. Slow and early and cautious is fast. Rushing is slow.

Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by dfelsent

I’m another in the no snuffer camp. At least when I was single handing a Sabre 38 with a symmetrical chute.

Just more weight aloft and things to go wrong.

You have sails that can blanket the spinnaker. Main and jib. Get it behind the main. Letter box if you need to when the breeze is up.

One thing I learned about spinnakers and forestays. The wrap seems to happen when the chute is too close to the boat and the main is out. The vortex off the main spins the chute around. I have found that gybing makes the chute spin the other way and unwrap itself.

Something else I learned solo racing. When it was blowing 20 and I needed to gybe the chute 5 miles was about the minimum. A take down and jib hoist was three miles.

Time is your friend. Slow and early and cautious is fast. Rushing is slow.

I agree with the slow, early and cautious approach, few of us have an experienced team of 20 year olds who are fearless about running around the fore deck. The weight of the sock and bucket is tiny and not going to have an effect on a cruising yacht.

There is no need for a Genoa to drop an asym. Indeed the approach when short handed or solo should be "KISS" and this includes keeping the fore deck clear, the boat upright and stable. The main will provide enough just enough drive to keep the boat on course whilst you are working forward of the mast.

Once the tack is blown the asym will collapse back to the mast and hang outside the rail. The main will blanket it without needing the Genoa. Sock down and then drop the lot onto the fore deck like a giant snake, straight into the forepeak.

Couple of things worth highlighting, no engines until its down. The sheets are really long and if the asym does go into the water you're in for a world of pain if they reach the prop.

The other point is you don't need two sheets. Since the sock is so easy to use drop the sock and walk the sheet around the forestay, connect the tack back up and raise the sock. This fits in with the distances needed to raise and drop an asym solo. You really need lots of space and time to take your eyes away from look out duty.

Ours comes down before we reach 15 knots.

Pete

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Ours comes down before we reach 15 knots.

Boatspeed?

[Dockhead]

OK, so a real bow-man has joined our crew, and his advice was that a snuffer will be really beneficial, so I'm going to buy one. I found one which is 3 meters too short -- but that's ok, isn't it?



Now I'm thinking about sheets and guys. If I will gybe by snuffing, I guess I only need one of each, right?


I have 20 fathoms of 8mm dyneema left over from making my drogue, so I think I will use this to make long, light leaders for the sheet(s). Or is this overkill? The sheet tension is vastly less than on a regular jib, I think. I also have some 12mm double braid poly left over -- maybe just make the sheets from that?


For the tackline, I was thinking double purchase through low friction rings. Or is THAT overkill? Will this be under a lot of tension?

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

OK, so a real bow-man has joined our crew, and his advice was that a snuffer will be really beneficial, so I'm going to buy one. I found one which is 3 meters too short -- but that's ok, isn't it?

That's fine, tie a leader to the tack and clew when you pack the kite in the bag so you can find them.

Now I'm thinking about sheets and guys. If I will gybe by snuffing, I guess I only need one of each, right?

One is fine, you're not racing I assume so jibing outside isn't a thing for you.

I have 20 fathoms of 8mm dyneema left over from making my drogue, so I think I will use this to make long, light leaders for the sheet(s). Or is this overkill?

How big is the sail?

The sheet tension is vastly less than on a regular jib, I think. I also have some 12mm double braid poly left over -- maybe just make the sheets from that?

The sheet load can be substantial when powered up and running into the back of a wave.

For the tackline, I was thinking double purchase through low friction rings. Or is THAT overkill? Will this be under a lot of tension?

We don't bother to adjust our tack height cruising but if you want to that's fine. It will be under a fair amount of tension.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

OK, so a real bow-man has joined our crew, and his advice was that a snuffer will be really beneficial, so I'm going to buy one. I found one which is 3 meters too short -- but that's ok, isn't it?

Yeah, should be fine. And if necessary easy enough to splice in some extra when you get around to it.

Now I'm thinking about sheets and guys. If I will gybe by snuffing, I guess I only need one of each, right?

Yes, correct, one of each is enough. Maybe a third as a spare, but kept unused. They also don't need to be as long if you will gybe by snuffing. But you may start doing regular gybes later when you are more confident.

I have 20 fathoms of 8mm dyneema left over from making my drogue, so I think I will use this to make long, light leaders for the sheet(s). Or is this overkill? The sheet tension is vastly less than on a regular jib, I think. I also have some 12mm double braid poly left over -- maybe just make the sheets from that?

I like the 8mm, because it's lightweight for light air sailing, and runs freely and easily in blocks. But often cruisers aren't used to such small diameter lines and will feel uncomfortable initially. And you will need a couple of extra wraps on the winch compared to normal.

For the tackline, I was thinking double purchase through low friction rings. Or is THAT overkill? Will this be under a lot of tension?

Yes it can be under a lot of load. Some boats use a 2:1 (or more) there. Try it and see. Nothing really lost if you decide to go back to 1:1.

Some answers above in red.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

OK, so a real bow-man has joined our crew, and his advice was that a snuffer will be really beneficial, so I'm going to buy one. I found one which is 3 meters too short -- but that's ok, isn't it?

E50 to the local sail maker could add in a strip, perhaps in a different colour so you know which end goes up. The line inside will need extending too, its probably a continuous loop.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Now I'm thinking about sheets and guys. If I will gybe by snuffing, I guess I only need one of each, right?

If it was just you and the lads then yes, KISS but if you have a bow man with experience perhaps you can progress a little quicker from basics to gybing so a second long sheet, something like 1.5x LOA will be useful.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I have 20 fathoms of 8mm dyneema left over from making my drogue, so I think I will use this to make long, light leaders for the sheet(s). Or is this overkill? The sheet tension is vastly less than on a regular jib, I think. I also have some 12mm double braid poly left over -- maybe just make the sheets from that?

8mm is hard on the hands, we used to use it to pull up a 56lb shot after diving and the hands hurty afterwards especially if wet.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

For the tackline, I was thinking double purchase through low friction rings. Or is THAT overkill? Will this be under a lot of tension?

Hmm, how about using the 8mm dyneema for the tack to cockpit line?

I don't know how to calculate the loads on a yacht of that size, but the Genoa sheets and back stay give a clue. There is a calculator on the Harken website that I have used to calculate genoa sheet and main sheet loads in 30 and 42 knots. The results are fabulously low, like 285kg in 42 knots for the main. There may be a spinnaker sheet calculator as well.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Pete7

8mm is hard on the hands, we used to use it to pull up a 56lb shot after diving and the hands hurty afterwards especially if wet.

Remember that on DH's size of boat the sheet and guy will always be on a winch, so even if you are constantly trimming, raceboat style with the sheet tail in your hand (and standing on the weather rail, to look the part ), you will still not be feeling the full sheet load as there will still be a few wraps on the primary winch drum as a minimum.

I think DH was suggesting 8mm leaders though, so maybe with 12mm tails for added comfort?

But yes that may be over kill for cruising.

[Pete7]

Good point, he has huge great 24v winches. I am used to pulling in the sheet by hand and and using the winch more of a stop

Originally Posted by jmh2002

so even if you are constantly trimming, raceboat style with the sheet tail in your hand (and standing on the weather rail, to look the part ), you will still not be feeling the full sheet load

Do people still do that? so last year

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Do people still do that? so last year

They shouldn't, at least not when cruising, as that hand would be better used to hold a beer instead

But if some racing fever takes over during DHs passage, they might be constantly trimming at times.

[Dockhead]

Yes, this is SINGLE BRAID dyneema, so just for leaders -- they won't work on winches -- too slippery. But is it stupid to use this nice cordage like this? Unlike jib sheets a bit of stretch is not a problem, right? Am I overthinking this? Maybe just 12mm double braid poly and call it done? Or is the lightness of 8mm long leaders a big plus in light air?


And I guess the leaders will want to be something like 10 - 12m long, for a 16.4m long boat?

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Yes, this is SINGLE BRAID dyneema, so just for leaders -- they won't work on winches -- too slippery. But is it stupid to use this nice cordage like this? Unlike jib sheets a bit of stretch is not a problem, right? Am I overthinking this? Maybe just 12mm double braid poly and call it done? Or is the lightness of 8mm long leaders a big plus in light air?


And I guess the leaders will want to be something like 10 - 12m long, for a 16.4m long boat?

I'm not convinced that you need the added complexity of the leaders.

But separately, yes of course light sheets are a big plus in light air.

Also it's the same like with any sail - any stretch in the line is 'lost performance' as that force from the sail is not translated into forward motion.

So it's not stupid from a performance perspective.

Having said all that, it still may be overkill for your (initial) purposes.

If you have enough of the 12mm then it may be simpler just to go with that and be done with it.

[wingssail]

Yes, that's what I say: My answers are in red

Originally Posted by Dockhead

OK, so a real bow-man has joined our crew, and his advice was that a snuffer will be really beneficial, so I'm going to buy one. I found one which is 3 meters too short -- but that's ok, isn't it?
I've done takedowns with a short snuffer, 3 meters will leave a lot of sail that can still fill and be blowing around on the foredeck. But since I vastly prefer using no snuffer at all, even shorthanded by a couple of old folks, I guess this will work. Me, I find it much faster and simpler to set and dowse without a snuffer.

Now I'm thinking about sheets and guys. If I will gybe by snuffing, I guess I only need one of each, right?
I think one guy but two sheets, in the event that you ever want to start gybing without snuffing. Last month we sailed a big Hylas. first time out for them with a new chute, with a assym and a snuffer, and we gybed it while leaving the snuffer up, (and we gybed back before dowsing, if not you have to take the snuffer around the forestay before snuffing). Plus, two sheets give you some back up in case you loose a sheet at sea, which happens.

I have 20 fathoms of 8mm dyneema left over from making my drogue, so I think I will use this to make long, light leaders for the sheet(s). Or is this overkill? The sheet tension is vastly less than on a regular jib, I think. I also have some 12mm double braid poly left over -- maybe just make the sheets from that?

If your dyneema is covered (doubled braid) this will be excellent, and easily big enough for crew handling. But your 20 fathoms is barely enough for one complete sheet. OK, strip the cover off the dyneema and use it as leaders for two sheets, but splice some 12mm on for the rest of the sheet length.The 12mm can also be taken as spare, heavy weather, sheets. Make the sheets long, really long, enough to go from the clew of the spinnaker to the forestay, back on the other side to the stern, then forward to wherever it will be sheeted from, and some extra. 2x boat length and then some.

For the tackline, I was thinking double purchase through low friction rings. Or is THAT overkill? Will this be under a lot of tension?

I honestly think that this line should go to a winch and 2:1 may be needed. This will be the heaviest loaded line of the sail