What jib?

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Panope

Sorry for the thread drift.......

Perhaps one of you with more "performance" type sailing experience than I do can answer a question that I have.

For the first time, I have been using an 80%, high aspect ratio, high clew, Yankee (alone, without staysail, love it) and have noticed that it's sheet loads are much LESS than the sheet loads of a low aspect ratio, low clew jib of the SAME AREA.

Question:

What is causing the yankee to have lower sheet loads? Is it the high aspect ratio? Or high clew? Or no mainsail overlap? Or?

I ask because I might soon have a permanent headsail made (the current sail is a second hand, proof of concept), and I might make some adjustments.

Thanks in advance

Steve

The higher clewed sail has less leach load. A blade with the clew at deck level has a highly loaded leach to control twist. When sheets are eased the sail opens so twings are needed to control the twist. Easing sheets on the Yankee/jib top doesn't generate as much twist. It won't be as fast up wind but it's an easier sail to handle. When racing in a breeze the progression was #3 upwind, then jib top/blast reacher as you cracked off. Cruisers don't generally carry all these sails or want to make sail changes, we don't.

I'm not crazy about the new crop of boats being sold for cruising because they all carry blades. Blades are great upwind but open when cracked. It seems none of the new boats have outboard track or pad eyes for mitigating twist.

Sorry for the long answer. The short answer is blades have to pull down the leach harder, hence higher sheet loads. If you break jib sheets it'll be upwind with a blade.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Panope

Sorry for the thread drift.......

Perhaps one of you with more "performance" type sailing experience than I do can answer a question that I have.

For the first time, I have been using an 80%, high aspect ratio, high clew, Yankee (alone, without staysail, love it) and have noticed that it's sheet loads are much LESS than the sheet loads of a low aspect ratio, low clew jib of the SAME AREA.

Question:

What is causing the yankee to have lower sheet loads? Is it the high aspect ratio? Or high clew? Or no mainsail overlap? Or?

I ask because I might soon have a permanent headsail made (the current sail is a second hand, proof of concept), and I might make some adjustments.

Thanks in advance

Steve

High aspect ratio sails generally have higher sheet loads. The only thing that lessens sheet load in a given breeze is sheet lead further aft. That is the effect of the high clew that you’re noticing, as you can move the sheet lead aft and still maintain even trim. The higher load of the low clew is generally caused by it taking on more of the leech load because the sheet lead needs to be below the clew and inline with the leech.

As a <100% sail a higher clew is a good option, especially with a full hoist luff.

[Searles]

A high clew allows the sail to exhaust down thus relieving the load but not effecting the lift to windward ,hence the use of a yankee cut 110 pc on the outer furler and a 100 pc staysail on the innerforestay ,adjust the main area accordingly .ps the staysail in not to be a deck scraper .⛵️⚓️

[theglo]

Thanks all for your suggestions. My boat was very well equipped with sails and I imagine one of the ones I have in storage is a 90/100. It is roller furler and I’m assuming these others I have are roller furler as well. I believe they are near new condition (or at least rarely if ever used) carbon fiber sails. I can only bring one back with me as I’m checking it on an aircraft.

We plan to start heading east from Puerto Plata, DR in about a week if weather permits… so I’ll have immediate feedback. Not sure we will be sailing at all for the first few legs::. Likely just motorsailing with the main, but, who knows.

[theglo]

Dug thru my storage unit and had 3 carbon fiber sails to chose from: a 70, a 100, and a 145 (bigger than what’s on their now). I’m brining the 100 back with me to the DR.

As I write this I think I may be able to shove the 70 in the sail bag as well. Luckily these sails are carbon fiber and are very light weight.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by theglo

Dug thru my storage unit and had 3 carbon fiber sails to chose from: a 70, a 100, and a 145 (bigger than what’s on their now). I’m brining the 100 back with me to the DR.

As I write this I think I may be able to shove the 70 in the sail bag as well. Luckily these sails are carbon fiber and are very light weight.

Wow, a set of near new carbon sails (and of the bag is any indicator, by North).

Very lucky, you must have bought a ex race boat, somebody spent a lot of money at one time.

Just check carefully about the luff length and the luff tape size. It would be unusual for a race boat to have roller furling or sails that fit with roller furling.

One final thought: Those carbon sails are, in my mind, a treasure. So if you got a chance in the near future, you might buy a Dacron working jib and leave the carbon in the bag for special occasions. A 85-100% Dacron high clew working jib will be inexpensive and last a long time, allowing you to preserve the expensive ones, and your boat will sail perfectly well with such a sail.

[theglo]

Thanks! The sails are fantastic and the boat was well equipped. All the carbon fiber sails (4 headsails and the main) are roller furler. Im assuming they rigged for the race and didnt change it after?? Not sure. I also have a regular Dacron headsail but its here in storage as well and way too heavy to carry on the plane. We are actively sailing for the next 5 to 7 months so the carbon fiber ones are going to get their use! likely on the north coast of the DR in a week… weather dependant. Thanks!!

Originally Posted by wingssail

Wow, a set of near new carbon sails (and of the bag is any indicator, by North).

Very lucky, you must have bought a ex race boat, somebody spent a lot of money at one time.

Just check carefully about the luff length and the luff tape size. It would be unusual for a race boat to have roller furling or sails that fit with roller furling.

One final thought: Those carbon sails are, in my mind, a treasure. So if you got a chance in the near future, you might buy a Dacron working jib and leave the carbon in the bag for special occasions. A 85-100% Dacron high clew working jib will be inexpensive and last a long time, allowing you to preserve the expensive ones, and your boat will sail perfectly well with such a sail.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by theglo

I have sailed my boat from Florida to the Dominican Republic and believe my 120 Genoa was too big. I spent most of my sail reefed or overpowered. The winds were generally 15 to 20 knots, all upwind.

I am back home for 2 days later this week and have a full compliment of smaller jibs in storage. I’m not sure exactly what size they are but know they are smaller and are likely what a racing sailboat would carry.

Is there a particular size folks would recommend to carry as a headsail, smaller than a 120, to have better cruising comfort and less racing performance?

I appreciate your help. I know the actual sizes of my other sails will help but I only have access to the storage for a few hours and thought I’d ask the general question first.

Thanks!!

I like 115% -120% max. BUT, I like it high cut with a pendent at the tack. So essentially you may overlap to 115%, but you have less area than a normal 115% and it's up away from the water and allows visibility. See my avatar. I think that was 115%.

[Bill_Giles]

What about converting to a cutter rig with a handed on blade jib on the inner forestay? Then you retain the genoa for down wind work. The jib can live yanked on and tied down ready to be swiftly hoisted.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by theglo

I have sailed my boat from Florida to the Dominican Republic and believe my 120 Genoa was too big. I spent most of my sail reefed or overpowered. The winds were generally 15 to 20 knots, all upwind.

I am back home for 2 days later this week and have a full compliment of smaller jibs in storage. I’m not sure exactly what size they are but know they are smaller and are likely what a racing sailboat would carry.

Is there a particular size folks would recommend to carry as a headsail, smaller than a 120, to have better cruising comfort and less racing performance?

I appreciate your help. I know the actual sizes of my other sails will help but I only have access to the storage for a few hours and thought I’d ask the general question first.

Thanks!!

We started from the great lakes with 130 Genoa, quantum 5 layer monster. That was a great venue for it. Last year, it finally fell apart, 12 years. We used it very little in the Caribbean since the winds here are 15-20 true most of the time. The new sail is North 3DI, 98% blade with the clew about 5 feet above the deck. It is OK to 22 knots apparent. Above that we switch to the cutter for close hauled.

[AEM]

I use the removable inner stay with 100% jib on hanks, in combination with full or reefed mainsail. It is very easy to drop the jib and unfurl the 130% genoa on main forestay. I also cut the original 140% genoa to 130%, seems better sailing now. For light winds, say till 8-10 knots, I uses the light genoa on furler and bowspirit, like small Code-0...

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by AEM

I use the removable inner stay with 100% jib on hanks, in combination with full or reefed mainsail. It is very easy to drop the jib and unfurl the 130% genoa on main forestay. I also cut the original 140% genoa to 130%, seems better sailing now. For light winds, say till 8-10 knots, I uses the light genoa on furler and bowspirit, like small Code-0...

Not that the OP is in the DR. He is unlikely to see much light wind at all. The more south he travels, the more so it will be. We went six seasons with the 130 furled 95% of the time. Our daily sail was the 2/3 hoist roller furling cutter. I had it made with a significant upgrade in material weight. It gets inspected and stitched annually. Probably good for 60 knots.

After about mid December the ‘Christmas’ winds come in. Maybe 20-25 for weeks.

Photos: Two moderate wind days.

Bare mizzen, main, old 130 and staysail, double heading. Note how tiny the staysail is. More than enough going to weather in 20+.

Running off with 15 apparent. Everything is up but the staysail. New 98% Genoa, main, mizzen staysail, mizzen.

[AEM]

As I wrote, for upwind I use the 100% jib upto approx AWS 20-25 knots, for stronger wind I use the storm jib 90% with 60% of height of removable stay.

[SohoSail]

Originally Posted by theglo

Dug thru my storage unit and had 3 carbon fiber sails to chose from: a 70, a 100, and a 145 (bigger than what’s on their now). I’m brining the 100 back with me to the DR.

As I write this I think I may be able to shove the 70 in the sail bag as well. Luckily these sails are carbon fiber and are very light weight.

Just out of curiosity, do you know what type of "carbon sails" you have ? The sort of first generation of North moulded sails, the 3dl, definitely had a life span, even just in the bag, and after a certain number of years, they could delam pretty severely. Guess we are talking about maybe 5-7 years maybe. They were good sails, just had a lifespan. Depends on the construction spec at the time. The next iteration, the 3di, are so much better in terms of lifespan, they are lovely sails and hold shape excellently and due to the construction technique, no delam.

For reference as regards the fulling drum and the sails, not inconceivable that the racing sails would work on the furler, I had all mine, except the #3 cut to work on the furler. There were advantages to it. Good luck.

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Not that the OP is in the DR. He is unlikely to see much light wind at all. The more south he travels, the more so it will be. We went six seasons with the 130 furled 95% of the time. Our daily sail was the 2/3 hoist roller furling cutter. I had it made with a significant upgrade in material weight. It gets inspected and stitched annually. Probably good for 60 knots.



After about mid December the ‘Christmas’ winds come in. Maybe 20-25 for weeks.



Photos: Two moderate wind days.



Bare mizzen, main, old 130 and staysail, double heading. Note how tiny the staysail is. More than enough going to weather in 20+.



Running off with 15 apparent. Everything is up but the staysail. New 98% Genoa, main, mizzen staysail, mizzen.

Second pix looks like a submarine :-)

Nice sailing looks like