Whisker Pole

[newhaul]

On my columbia defender I carry both spinnaker pole and twist lock telescopic whisker pole. I find I never use the spinnaker pole the whisker pole is much easier and faster to rig. (Dont know if they make twist lock poles long enough for 40ft plus boats)
Seems to me having pins to lock pole length would crate a failure point. Where ever the holes are drilled.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Sea Lyon

Thanks Jim will explore that route. Any ideas on length we have a J dim of 15 ft 9 inches

The "ideal" length will depend on the pole's primary use: jib, spinnaker, or other. And the size of the largest sail that you commonly fly, or carry on the furler/headstay.

Keep in mind too. That given 30min, a hacksaw, & a couple of other tools, they're easy enough to shorten. And going the other direction is possible, it just takes a few more parts, & a lot more time & effort. But it's far from rocket science to lengthen one.

Plus, if you've got the room, having a decent length of spare pole tubing, & a sleeve for joining them, is a good spare to have onboard. Should you happen to irrevocably kink your pole while on an extended light air passage.


Note: That while it's an attractive stowage optiion, keeping a mast on the pole vertically, when not in use, really does alter a boats motion, & handling qualities. Especially on boats with keels for thinner waters. It's one of those big hits to the creeping rise of the vertical CG on cruising boats.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Sea Lyon

Thanks Jim will explore that route. Any ideas on length we have a J dim of 15 ft 9 inches

IMO, length is not all that critical. I opted in that previous case for J plus about 10 %. Wasn't quite enough to fully stretch a 135% genoa, but that doesn't mean that it isn't useful. If you need to flatten the sail more, you simply roll up a small bit and voila, flat sail!

I think you said that you were considering storing up the mast. Uncivilized will be horrified... weight aloft, windage, etc, but if you set it up correctly, it makes setting and striking the pole an easy one person job. Depending on your mast design, there may be limits to the length, so check those numbers before you cut t he tube! You will likely need to add some additional track to the mast, too, and some blocks for the control line for the inboard end of t he pole.

We've done a lot of sea miles with such a setup, and still feel that the convenience and safety afforded by it easily offsets the performance hits.

good luck with it!

Jim

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

IMO, length is not all that critical. I opted in that previous case for J plus about 10 %. Wasn't quite enough to fully stretch a 135% genoa, but that doesn't mean that it isn't useful. If you need to flatten the sail more, you simply roll up a small bit and voila, flat sail!

I think you said that you were considering storing up the mast. Uncivilized will be horrified... weight aloft, windage, etc, but if you set it up correctly, it makes setting and striking the pole an easy one person job. Depending on your mast design, there may be limits to the length, so check those numbers before you cut t he tube! You will likely need to add some additional track to the mast, too, and some blocks for the control line for the inboard end of t he pole.

Jim

Jim you & Ann are forgiven for your (sailing) sins as far as I'm concerned. I'm chocking it up to a touch of eccentricity which comes with age (for all of us), which down the road some years, I may come to understand said technique, & possibly embrace it.

That said, exactly how do you have the pole rigged? Leave the butt end connected to the car on the track, & control the pole's tip as you run the butt up the mast? Then connecting the jaws to ???
And if not that, then what? Though regardless, a detailed explanation would be helpful. Especially if pics are included.

One perk of having the pole(s) on the deck, is that they make nice "toe rails" when working the foredeck when the wind's forward of the beam.

[chouliha]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Snowpetrel's post sparked a thought. A fair number of (often older) ocean racers, & long range cruisers will carry 2 poles. And they needn't be the same length nor type. So if you've the space, & budget you might consider this. And sometimes you can find a pole that was damaged, but with the dinged section cut off it works perfectly with you lapper. So that you could carry that plus a penalty pole. Choosing which one to use based on sail choice, & conditions.

One other thing yet unmentioned in the thread is that often it's nice to tune the length of the pole to suit the desired draft depth of the sail or vice versa. Meaning that at times it's nice to have the pole be several feet shorter than the sail in use's J measurement, so that it has a nicely curved shape to it. And other times it's nice to have the pole & sail work together to keep the jib all but board flat. Such things depend on conditions, as well as the cut of the sail, etc. But are another trimming technique that can be quite handy, optimizing your speed & your boat's controllablity, for; wind angle, wind speed, boat speed, waves, sail size & cut, etc.

We have the 2 pole setup. Both poles are different. One is a Forespar I built after buying the tube and end fittings from West Marine. The second is a pole from farm watering system. It came with the boat more than 30+ years ago. I replaced the end fitting about 26 years ago.

Our standard trade wind setup is to keep the main covered and just go with twin headsails. Old school --- maybe but I did enough offshore racing when I was younger and now try to keep things simple.

Good luck

Chuck

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by chouliha

We have the 2 pole setup. Both poles are different. One is a Forespar I built after buying the tube and end fittings from West Marine. The second is a pole from farm watering system. It came with the boat more than 30+ years ago. I replaced the end fitting about 26 years ago.

Our standard trade wind setup is to keep the main covered and just go with twin headsails. Old school --- maybe but I did enough offshore racing when I was younger and now try to keep things simple.

Good luck

Chuck

Chuck
I know twin headsail, twin pole setups are good for downwind tradewind runs. Plenty of boats make good passages I with them. I'm just not seeing where setting up twin poles, with topping lifts and guys, plus sheets, plus carrying two similar sized sails goes under the category of keeping things simple. If you aren't already setup that way, that's a ton of gear to add, let alone construct or destruct on each use.

[Pete7]

Agreed and we haven't even got to the twizzle rig yet. Sparkman who championed the rig is actually a member of CF.

So why not just clip the pole end to the sheet were it joins the clew?

Pete

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

.. .

One perk of having the pole(s) on the deck, is that they make nice "toe rails" when working the foredeck when the wind's forward of the beam.

Yes.

I keep my pole on deck. Can't stand the idea of more weight and windage up the mast. It adds clutter, but, surprisingly, it's sometimes nice for it to be there. I like to sit on it when I'm fiddling with something on the foredeck, and like Unciv says, it can be a good brace when the boat is heeling.

It doesn't bother me on deck. After I cut a few feet off it, it will be even less in the way.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Chuck
I know twin headsail, twin pole setups are good for downwind tradewind runs. Plenty of boats make good passages I with them. I'm just not seeing where setting up twin poles, with topping lifts and guys, plus sheets, plus carrying two similar sized sails goes under the category of keeping things simple. If you aren't already setup that way, that's a ton of gear to add, let alone construct or destruct on each use.

Yeah, I asked pretty much the same exact question, here --> http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f90/do-i-really-need-two-poles-188974.html#post2453484
Where some of the questions you & I are posing were answered. Sort of. I guess it's one of those things you have to try, before you decide whether or not to become a convert.

My questions stem from the fact that most of my downwind sailing is, & has been done under spinnaker... while “on the clock” (racing). And when the kite’s not up, it’s due to high wind speeds. At which point the jib’s poled out on one side, with the main (on a preventer) on the other. While working to keep the boat, rig, crew, & sails in one piece.
Either that or both sails, main & asym spin, or main & jib/blast reacher are both on the same side, & we’re sailing hotter angles. One’s which are too tight for many kites.

I’ve done 2-pole gybes with a kite up on big boats. Primarily to keep solid control over the kite as the boat’s tail passes through the wind. But otherwise, rarely 2 poles at once. It’s a lot more rigging, & complexity. Plus when put against the Polars, sailing deep is slow, unless it’s blowing stupid hard.

That said, if both “jibs”; the ship’s primary jib & the CCZ or reaching jib with a wire or Kevlar luff tape, are both on furlers, then handling them is semi-simplified. Though the rigging of 2 complete pole setups isn’t. Especially when you consider than for many, one pole by itself is too much of an effort to mess with.

Most of my “cruising” is & has been, just “detuned racing”. Meaning put up the chute, open a cold one, & steer with my feet while kicked back. But then what’s that expression? “You go to what you know”. And besides, all of the boats I’ve owned have been fast enough that sailing gybing angles was the order of the day, as it made for the best VMG.

One of my other key questions about this rig, specifically about safety. Meaning WTF do you do when you have 2 headsails up on poles, with all of the attendant rigging, & you then have an MOB, curiously went unanswered. Kind of ironic given the safety paranoia on this forums.

And I can't think of any particular way to quickly stop the boat & turn it around while flying such a rig. Even if both headsails are on furlers of one variety or another. As there's a buttload of rigging that would need juggling, even assuming that nothing goes awry with furling both headsails. Which is by no means a foregone conclusion in such circumstances.

Particularly as this balanced headsail rig IS acting as the defacto rudder, & to a large degree will hamper or override the rudder until one or both of them is struck. Especially if you're sailing in the Trades, where 20kts or more ain't exactly uncommon.

[JPA Cate]

Good on ya, Chuck.

Knew of someone who had used a big piece of bamboo for the pole, and put fittings on that, for a second pole. Now, bamboo's interesting, 'cause it has reinforcers, nature built, in it, and is pretty strong and stable. But, how cool was that?

Sorry for the diversion, Uncivilized, but after age creeps up on you, and decrepitude, you become less enthused about speed, and more enthused by ease of doing *stuff*.

However, please do keep on enjoying sailing how YOU like to do it, until moved to do otherwise. I have to confess, before GPS, Jim and I overnighted under spinnaker in the Tuamotus, because the conditions were right.

Me Mum used to say, "circumstances alter cases." She said it a lot. It took me a loooooooong time to understand what she was getting at.

Cheers, mate,

Ann

[markpierce]

A strong spinnaker pole would be more suitable for your size boat. It needs to be strong. It also needs a halyard and a mast attachment adjustable for height.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

One of my other key questions about this rig, specifically about safety. Meaning WTF do you do when you have 2 headsails up on poles, with all of the attendant rigging, & you then have an MOB, curiously went unanswered. Kind of ironic given the safety paranoia on this forums.

And I can't think of any particular way to quickly stop the boat & turn it around while flying such a rig. Even if both headsails are on furlers of one variety or another. As there's a buttload of rigging that would need juggling, even assuming that nothing goes awry with furling both headsails. Which is by no means a foregone conclusion in such circumstances.

Particularly as this balanced headsail rig IS acting as the defacto rudder, & to a large degree will hamper or override the rudder until one or both of them is struck. Especially if you're sailing in the Trades, where 20kts or more ain't exactly uncommon.

A good question, in most cruising cases I think its going to be far easier to deal with twin headsails rather than a kite and main when shorthanded in a lumpy 20 knot trade wind. I guess with a kite you could pop the halyard, sheet and guy and hope the whole mess will blow away from the boat cleanly, but one foul up and you have a hell of a problem, such as a kite flying from the masthead, or wrapped around the keel. Otherwise you pop the guy and blanket it behind the main while you get it down or snuff it, all the while tearing off downwind with the main set. IMHO Forget trying to do a leeward mark style drop in a seaway with a skeleton crew caught on the hop.

In contrast twins, or a single poled out headsail and main are pretty easy and safe to drop. Just lower the halyards and they generally blow down the stay and hang clear of the water. Still a lot of windage but not the same danger of sails or ropes in the prop or other nastiness that a spinnaker can get up to. Sails on furlers are even easier to get rid of quickly. Downwind they don't load up heavily so the risk of a problem furling is much less. If the poles are set up right with Estarzinger style bridles they stay put even without a sail on them. Leave the poles up and motor back towards the POB once all ropes are clear. If you don't have a donk, at least the boat will be slowly drifting downwind safely. rather tearing about while you try to muzzel the kite.

Getting the main up wouldn't be much fun. When I sailed without an engine or just a small outboard I usually (but not always) tried to have the correct sized main up for this reason, though I could work to windward with just a headsail at a pinch.

Honestly it's a nightmare scenario on any boat, with any rig. Its even scarier on a square rigger, though a good crew can surprisingly quickly clew and bunt up the squares.

Thats why being clipped on is so important in these conditions. Yes I know there is a chance of drowning due to the harness...

[Snowpetrel]

Unless off course you are these guys, I am sure they could whisk the kite down in a flash and be bashing back to windward in no time.

https://youtu.be/Pw2HsxZCQVk

See around 4:30 for some very slick sailhandling from Booboo and co.

[JPA Cate]

Meaning WTF do you do when you have 2 headsails up on poles, with all of the attendant rigging, & you then have an MOB, curiously went unanswered

Imo, the MOB's a goner. If you have only one headsail up with a pole, you can heave to, then and there, it stops the boat quite fast, although it's kinda hard on equipment. In our 36 footer, we used to do just that to retrieve the drag generator. But not with two sails poled out. We've never run two poles.

Maybe the reason no one answered you was that no one had an answer with a felicitous outcome for the MOB.

Ann

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Imo, the MOB's a goner. If you have only one headsail up with a pole, you can heave to, then and there, it stops the boat quite fast, although it's kinda hard on equipment. In our 36 footer, we used to do just that to retrieve the drag generator. But not with two sails poled out. We've never run two poles.

Maybe the reason no one answered you was that no one had an answer with a felicitous outcome for the MOB.

Ann

Yes, Ann, quite so. On all counts. Which, not to sound pompus, but it does make me question the prudence of a double headsail rig with 2 poles. Especially on a forum where safety is so heavily (over) marketed, at every turn.