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Benz · 31-07-2024, 05:42

I like a piece of yarn or cassette tape on a shroud, where it's always fluttering around easy eye level. Hand-steering long night watches without a light at the masthead fly makes you appreciate something lower and more visible. I like it to be small enough to not distract, like a pennant does.
Steering by the feel of the wind and wave direction is all very well until you're bundled up in the cold, it's dark, and you're trying to wring the uttermost windward mile out of your course in a lumpy sea without stalling the rig. Going off the wind, in the same conditions, when a gybe would be a bad scene, it's really nice to have immediate and handy visual wind feedback.

**s/v Jedi** · 31-07-2024, 06:04

In light winds the apparent wind direction changes dramatically and your senses for the wind don’t work. I tried a telltale around a capshroud last season and it was hard to getting used to it’s position and also to determine it’s actual angle relative to the boat (you don’t look at it from the straight back).

So, I still prefer a masthead sensor with displays well positioned. I always had a Windex up there as well and miss it too.

If there’s enough wind, the telltales on the sails are enough for good sail trim but I still want to know if the wind is veering or crimping (you say backing probably) for which instruments are needed except when hard in the wind in which case you can use the compass.

thomm225 · 31-07-2024, 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

In light winds the apparent wind direction changes dramatically and your senses for the wind don’t work. I tried a telltale around a capshroud last season and it was hard to getting used to it’s position and also to determine it’s actual angle relative to the boat (you don’t look at it from the straight back).

So, I still prefer a masthead sensor with displays well positioned. I always had a Windex up there as well and miss it too.

If there’s enough wind, the telltales on the sails are enough for good sail trim but I still want to know if the wind is veering or crimping (you say backing probably) for which instruments are needed except when hard in the wind in which case you can use the compass.

Your senses work fine no matter the wind speed if you have experience.

The problem is most sailors rely too much on instruments without trying to simply do it by feel.

As a beginner, I used a wind indicator on my beach cats for racing mainly for the downwind run.

On a Hobie 16, we used to sail 90 degrees apparent downwind. Some went deeper, but I could usually beat them using the 90-degree method.

With my Nacra 17 that had a spinnaker, I sailed deeper downwind than on the H16 and rarely used the wind indicator mainly sailing by the luff curl of the spinnaker.

thinwater · 31-07-2024, 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomm225

Your senses work fine no matter the wind speed if you have experience.

The problem is most sailors rely too much on instruments without trying to simply do it by feel.

As a beginner, I used a wind indicator on my beach cats for racing mainly for the downwind run.

On a Hobie 16, we used to sail 90 degrees apparent downwind. Some went deeper, but I could usually beat them using the 90-degree method.

With my Nacra 17 that had a spinnaker, I sailed deeper downwind than on the H16 and rarely used the wind indicator mainly sailing by the luff curl of the spinnaker.

Somehow have no experience. Odd.

---

Bottom line: Not many have tried bow wind indicators and the rest don't know how they would do it.

Mine have been broken for a few months. I didn't have any the first years or two I had the boat. I did fine. I just like them, and just as importantly, so do my guest helmsman and crew.

I've order a pair of Schaefer Mini Hawk MKIIs, which will do nicely.

Iron E · 31-07-2024, 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomm225

Your senses work fine no matter the wind speed if you have experience.

The problem is most sailors rely too much on instruments without trying to simply do it by feel.

The problem many have on this forum (The biggest issue IMO) is that they adopt a one-size-fits-all' attitude.

"Sensing the wind" from the cockpit of a 27-foot Bristol or a Beachcat in familiar waters is quite different from sensing it aboard a PDQ Altair Catamaran or the cockpit of a Sundeer 64 sailing in the winds in the Sea of Cortez or quick and unpredictable wind changes in Lake Michigan, where, by the way... you can't always look at the waves to determine wind.

rslifkin · 31-07-2024, 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron E

The problem many have on this forum (The biggest issue IMO) is that they adopt a one-size-fits-all' attitude.

"Sensing the wind" from the cockpit of a 27-foot Bristol or a Beachcat in familiar waters is quite different from sensing it aboard a PDQ Altair Catamaran or the cockpit of a Sundeer 64 sailing in the winds in the Sea of Cortez or quick and unpredictable wind changes in Lake Michigan, where, by the way... you can't always look at the waves to determine wind.

Or when it's cold and/or raining and you're bundled up with little exposed skin to feel the wind with.

Iron E · 31-07-2024, 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinwater

I've order a pair of Schaefer Mini Hawk MKIIs, which will do nicely.

I'm a big fan of low level wind indicators. I am not a fan of some of the prices. I've thought that "Someday" I'll get around to making some DIY's that are somewhere in between a Ribbon and the Davis

thinwater · 31-07-2024, 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron E

I'm a big fan of low level wind indicators. I am not a fan of some of the prices. I've thought that "Someday" I'll get around to making some DIY's that are somewhere in between a Ribbon and the Davis

Pictures?!

I agree. A yarn or ribbon is hard to read, but combined with a flexible rod, they can take a licking.

The Davis type (I find the Little Hawk a little more durable) is fragile and designed to be viewed from below (the reason for the wide tail). They are excellent at the masthead, vulnerable only to eagles. (I had the vane to my electronic instrument destroyed by an eagle once--it was like watching a cat or dog with a toy. I watched helplessly.)

The Little Hawk is designed specifically for deck-level use. Lasers and other cat rigged dinghies are a common application; the lack of a jib makes reading the wind more difficult.

As a general rule, electronic instruments are not permitted on dinghies by class rules, but mechanical indicators are permitted.

thomm225 · 31-07-2024, 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron E

The problem many have on this forum (The biggest issue IMO) is that they adopt a one-size-fits-all' attitude.

"Sensing the wind" from the cockpit of a 27-foot Bristol or a Beachcat in familiar waters is quite different from sensing it aboard a PDQ Altair Catamaran or the cockpit of a Sundeer 64 sailing in the winds in the Sea of Cortez or quick and unpredictable wind changes in Lake Michigan, where, by the way... you can't always look at the waves to determine wind.

Ah, wind is wind, and if you have enough experience sailing by "feel" you'll be fine anywhere without a wind indicator of any type especially while simply cruising.

If I want to know for sure where the wind is, I get outside the dodger so my face can feel the wind.

As I said before, very few cruisers these days have ever sailed by feel so don't know what they are capable of.

Of my 12 boats, (6 were old power boats) this Bristol 27 is the first one I have had with any electronics at all. First one with a depth find, radio, first sailboat with lights, first sailboat with an engine, first sailboat with autopilot, etc.

I bought the Bristol 27 in 2011. Bought my first boat in the early 70's as a teenager.
Purchased on seaside but tested it in the Bay.

First sailboat 1982. First beach cat of four 1992.

We ended up sailing at night during our yearly 100 mile race if the wind was wrong.

It started at 0700. White Flag.

We finished the first one by 7:30 pm because the wind rotated correctly for a 100 mile RTI Race. The next finish was 7:30 pm and two after that were 20-hour sails getting us in at 3:00 am.

After getting stuck out a night a couple times we started using red and green light sticks because coming back on the inside you had to deal with barge traffic and sometimes there was no wind at all.

The Race started off Ft Walton Beach at 0700, then we'd sail toward Destin and under the Destin Bridge and out to the sea buoy.

Then head West for about 55 miles or so and come back in Pensacola Pass, then back to Ft Walton sailing under 3 more bridges.

This Harrier Pilot cannot feel the wind, so he needs the wind indicator for a quick update on what the wind is doing in a hover. Not sure if the wind indicator on the Harrier is inputting any data to the onboard computers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El5sykQFPdo

thomm225 · 31-07-2024, 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron E

The problem many have on this forum (The biggest issue IMO) is that they adopt a one-size-fits-all' attitude.

"Sensing the wind" from the cockpit of a 27-foot Bristol or a Beachcat in familiar waters is quite different from sensing it aboard a PDQ Altair Catamaran or the cockpit of a Sundeer 64 sailing in the winds in the Sea of Cortez or quick and unpredictable wind changes in Lake Michigan, where, by the way... you can't always look at the waves to determine wind.

Another thought on this would be the owners of the boats you describe simply never learned to feel the wind and have always relied on electronics or some sort of indicator as to wind direction.

You see it all the time with some of these big, expensive boats that are being sailed by folks with not a lot of basic knowledge, and that could never compete against a seasoned beach cat or small sailboat racer.

Plus, most times cruisers are on autopilot.

I sailed my first couple thousand miles always on the helm with no electronics and used wind indicators the first few years but rarely needed them afterward.

Since I raced though, I kept attaching them for a quick reference to match the tell tales on my sails to the wind indicator for optimal pointing and speed which is tough when racing 15-50 boats off the starting line.

Wind indicator, mainsail telltales, and mast rotation all good in photo below which was pretty easy with the steady, light wind on this day.

On a day with more wind, things are different.

**s/v Jedi** · 31-07-2024, 14:51

It’s hilarious

Yes, I had a gadget on my Laser but it was attached to the front of the mast, came with Velcro strap and it worked very well.

Now I have another item on my 3D print list.

**JPA Cate** · 01-08-2024, 14:21

Talk to your doctor, thinwater.

In 2009, I had severe neck pain. [If your pain is not severe, stop reading here.] I had "spinal decompression surgery" in my neck. It gave me years more of spinnaker trim, and I can still look all the way up comfortably. It is a radical approach, but I have not regretted it.

Feel free to PM me, if you'd like me to write you more.

Ann

Happ · 05-08-2024, 06:58

Here’s an idea. Take a Windex and attach to the sprit extending forward of the sprit. That will give you undisturbed readings. The only negative is often the readings down low are different then on top of the mast because=use it is so close to the water.