Witchcraft - Splicing Octoplait

[Pyxis156]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Previously the snubber deviated slightly around the cabin top at a couple of points with soft shackles. That worked reasonably, but the shackles would sometimes ride along a bit before they jerked back in place. I am playing with trialling the use of low friction rings attached to the cross piece of the bollard using an openable Bullseye strop. This will also raise the snubber slightly off the deck when it is under tension. The strop is short enough that that LF ring can't reach the deck and bang on it when the load is released. If for some reason this doesn't work, I will go back to soft shackles to divert the track around the cabin top.

SWL,

Is there any chance you might have a photo of your setup from your old boat? I am trying to deal with the same issue on our boat and have yet to come up with something I am happy with. Definitely interested in how you have dealt with this in the past as well as your thoughts for how to deal with it on your new boat.

Thanks

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by Tony B

Question.....How come 8 strand as opposed to double braided nylon?
Just curious.

8 strand has more chafe resistance. Should also be slightly cheaper. Ships mooring lines are usually 8 strand. There are some that are 6 strand wire rope, some Atlas, some Samson double braid, even some 12 strand, but probably 80% will be 8 strand. Commercial users dont care about pretty, or about slightly higher pedigree for twice as much dough. They want stuff that will last long enough to justify the cost. You will find that for many uses, 8 strand is more cost effective than the rest, but still handles more easily than 3 strand.

8 strand is easy to splice. Just unlay the bitter end to a cup with two pairs sticking naturally out one side and two pairs sticking out the other. Match the cup against the standing part. Look at the standing part pairs, and tuck like with like. 4 rounds of tucks, then taper. Easiest braid or plait to splice.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Pyxis156

SWL,

Is there any chance you might have a photo of your setup from your old boat? I am trying to deal with the same issue on our boat and have yet to come up with something I am happy with. Definitely interested in how you have dealt with this in the past as well as your thoughts for how to deal with it on your new boat.

Thanks

I don't have any photos of our old setup, but I can draw a diagram. I will do that later tonight for you.

The new boat I am just playing with at the moment, as deck hardware and rigging have not been fitted yet and may interfere (particularly at the bow). I will post photos when that is finally done if that is of interest.

SWL

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Pyxis156

SWL,

Is there any chance you might have a photo of your setup from your old boat? I am trying to deal with the same issue on our boat and have yet to come up with something I am happy with. Definitely interested in how you have dealt with this in the past as well as your thoughts for how to deal with it on your new boat.

Thanks

This is a diagram showing what we did on our old boat:




Modifications to the new system:
- Dyneema will run over the bow roller to reduce chafe (probably 10mm, with eye splices at each end)
- Instead of soft shackles to deviate the snubber to follow the deck around the cabin top, low friction rings attached to the bollards via Bullseye strops will be used
- As the bollards are high we have the opportunity to have the snubber hover slightly above deck when under tension.

SWL

[Factor]

Another snubber question- Running the snubber from the transom was something that Jon Neeves mentioned to me a few years back. He doesn't post here anymore but in articles published on Practical Sailor and in posts to YBW he mas also discussed this? I was never sure?

How has been your experience with it so far? Sounds like you have been happy with it.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Check out post #1328 in this thread for more details:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...st-147499.html

Off to do some octoplait splicing .

SWL

[Pyxis156]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

This is a diagram showing what we did on our old boat:

Thanks for taking the time to make the diagram SWL. A picture is worth a thousand words, and answers a thousand questions! However, that said...

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Modifications to the new system:
...
- Instead of soft shackles to deviate the snubber to follow the deck around the cabin top, low friction rings attached to the bollards via Bullseye strops will be used
...

I have been considering a similar setup using low-friction rings but have been stymied by how to run the snubber through the low-friction rings if you have eyes spliced to each end? The spliced eye would be too thick to pass through the eye of the ring, wouldn't it?

Our boat is 54' (16.5m) and weighs about 50,000 lbs. (22 metric tons) and I run two different size snubbers depending on the conditions. If winds are forecast to be less than about 25 knots, I run an approximately 35' (11m) 1/2" (12.5mm) octoplait snubber, and if forecast to be over 25 knots or if the weather is unsettled, I run a 50' (15m) 3/4" (19mm) octoplait snubber. I found the heavier snubber didn't stretch as much as I wanted in the 5-15 knot winds we most typically have at anchor, while the 1/2" snubber works perfectly in those conditions. A bit more inconvenient than a single snubber, but the performance difference is significant enough that I am happy to live with it.

However, both snubbers have stainless thimbles spliced into the eyes at either end and that causes problems using them with low-friction rings. I thought about placing the low-friction ring permanently on the line before splicing the eyes at the ends, but I haven't resorted to that yet as it seemed inelegant and I thought there surely has to be a better way.

Thanks again for sharing your experiences with your previous snubber setup and any further thoughts on snubber setup v2.0 will be appreciated.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Pyxis156

Thanks for taking the time to make the diagram SWL. A picture is worth a thousand words, and answers a thousand questions! However, that said...

I have been considering a similar setup using low-friction rings but have been stymied by how to run the snubber through the low-friction rings if you have eyes spliced to each end? The spliced eye would be too thick to pass through the eye of the ring, wouldn't it?

Our boat is 54' (16.5m) and weighs about 50,000 lbs. (22 metric tons) and I run two different size snubbers depending on the conditions. If winds are forecast to be less than about 25 knots, I run an approximately 35' (11m) 1/2" (12.5mm) octoplait snubber, and if forecast to be over 25 knots or if the weather is unsettled, I run a 50' (15m) 3/4" (19mm) octoplait snubber. I found the heavier snubber didn't stretch as much as I wanted in the 5-15 knot winds we most typically have at anchor, while the 1/2" snubber works perfectly in those conditions. A bit more inconvenient than a single snubber, but the performance difference is significant enough that I am happy to live with it.

However, both snubbers have stainless thimbles spliced into the eyes at either end and that causes problems using them with low-friction rings. I thought about placing the low-friction ring permanently on the line before splicing the eyes at the ends, but I haven't resorted to that yet as it seemed inelegant and I thought there surely has to be a better way.

Thanks again for sharing your experiences with your previous snubber setup and any further thoughts on snubber setup v2.0 will be appreciated.

Unfortunately, there is no perfect answer.

We only use one snubber (one suitable for strong wind or significant wave action eg with a lee shore). With milder conditions our snubber does not stretch much, but unlike you, we have found stretch is not really vital when conditions are mild.

As with always deploying the same big anchor regardless of forecast, we think one snubber is good for the same reason. It safest to always follow the boy scout philosophy of "be prepared" . Wind strength can often be significantly more than forecast and it can be downright vicious when a brief thunderstorm passes (quite scary for me when the boat is violently whipped around in multiple directions). It is really nice if the snubber (and anchor) can permanently cope with these conditions. Trying to change gear when the weather or sea state deteriorate is not pleasant and is sometimes unsafe, particularly when unexpected changes occur at 3am, which is when Murphy's law seems to be followed most often. It is nice going to sleep knowing you are set up for the very worst.

In the system I am planning, only one end of the snubber can be spliced before the LF rings are fed on. With only using one snubber, the only reason the snubber would need to come off would be to replace it due to age or breakage, so the new one would just be fed through the LF rings when needed. In our case, if the whole snubber needs to be taken off for some reason, then being able to disconnect the LF rings from the boat is the important bit (this is easy with a removable Bullseye strop).

If you need a low friction system while being able to change snubbers, then there are commercial LF "snap type" shackles available, where the line can be removed without feeding it all through, I have attached an image below of ones from Antal. These particular ones are limited to 16mm line, so would only work for your lighter snubber. The main problem with these is that they are expensive (several times the cost of an LF ring). It starts to become costly if you need a few for your snubber system.

Have you considered having both snubbers set up all the time, one on each deck? I know that clutters the deck a bit, but on a boat your size it would make minimal difference. It would then make it much easier alternating between different snubber sizes.

SWL

[JPA Cate]

Pyxis156,

If your boat has the perforated toe rail, why not a couple of strategecically placed snatch blocks per side for those snubbers? Some can be stropped to the toerail with a soft shackle, so it won't chew up the anodize.

Ann

[Pyxis156]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Unfortunately, there is no perfect answer.

We only use one snubber (one suitable for strong wind or significant wave action eg with a lee shore). With milder conditions our snubber does not stretch much, but unlike you, we have found stretch is not really vital when conditions are mild.

We find our boat sails at anchor less with the stretchier snubber, especially in lighter wind. I think this is because the snubber absorbs the energy and prevents the boat from suddenly snatching up and tacking over when it pulls on the rode hard enough. It will still do this when the wind picks up, but below about 15-20 knots it has all but stopped the sailing around at anchor.

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

As with always deploying the same big anchor regardless of forecast, we think one snubber is good for the same reason. It safest to always follow the boy scout philosophy of "be prepared" . Wind strength can often be significantly more than forecast and it can be downright vicious when a brief thunderstorm passes (quite scary for me when the boat is violently whipped around in multiple directions). It is really nice if the snubber (and anchor) can permanently cope with these conditions. Trying to change gear when the weather or sea state deteriorate is not pleasant and is sometimes unsafe, particularly when unexpected changes occur at 3am, which is when Murphy's law seems to be followed most often. It is nice going to sleep knowing you are set up for the very worst.

I am in violent agreement with you on this, and we do use a single large anchor for everything. Perhaps it is a case of familiarity breeding contempt and generally really good weather forecasting in my home cruising grounds, but I haven't had a scare yet using the smaller snubber. But you are right, in a more unknown location or with less confidence in the weather forecasts, I would be inclined to use the larger snubber all the time to be safe. When we cruised on a friend's boat in the Med we often had winds significantly higher than forecast, often at night, and that hits the point home. So does the video Ken posted of their Oyster anchored in an unexpected 35-40 knot blow.

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

In the system I am planning, only one end of the snubber can be spliced before the LF rings are fed on. With only using one snubber, the only reason the snubber would need to come off would be to replace it due to age or breakage, so the new one would just be fed through the LF rings when needed. In our case, if the whole snubber needs to be taken off for some reason, then being able to disconnect the LF rings from the boat is the important bit (this is easy with a removable Bullseye strop).

So does this mean that you generally leave your snubber setup all the time even when you are not at anchor? We stow our snubber when it isn't being used so that may be one big difference in design criteria that I had not considered.

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Have you considered having both snubbers set up all the time, one on each deck? I know that clutters the deck a bit, but on a boat your size it would make minimal difference. It would then make it much easier alternating between different snubber sizes.

I had not considered having my snubber(s) setup semi-permanently but it is an interesting idea! I wondered when you wrote in a previous post that "dirt tended to collect under the snubber" but now it makes sense. It would certainly make things more convenient, and would also open the door to potentially using both snubbers at the same time with the larger snubber taking the load once the smaller snubber reaches its maximum amount of working load stretch. I would just need to calculate that length and then connect the larger snubber at the appropriate spot on the chain to take over when necessary.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts as they have given me a whole new approach to consider!

[Pyxis156]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Pyxis156,

If your boat has the perforated toe rail, why not a couple of strategecically placed snatch blocks per side for those snubbers? Some can be stropped to the toerail with a soft shackle, so it won't chew up the anodize.

Ann

Hi Ann, thanks for the input. We do have a perforated toe rail and I had considered snatch blocks but was having problems finding one that would accommodate 3/4" line and not be crazy expensive. The cheapest one I found is from Garhauer at the low, low price of $210 USD each. The ones from Harken that handle that size line and can be stropped are insanely expensive. But a snatch block may be my best option depending on whether or not I decide to go with a semi-permanent snubber installation (see my previous post to SWL on that topic).

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts, greatly appreciated!

[DeepFrz]

I think the biggest problem with a snatch block at the toe rail for that use would be the likelihood of it dragging and banging on the deck.

[Pyxis156]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

I think the biggest problem with a snatch block at the toe rail for that use would be the likelihood of it dragging and banging on the deck.

I think a bit of stretch cord to the lifeline could tame that?

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Pyxis156

I think a bit of stretch cord to the lifeline could tame that?

Can also use 1/4" line or even 1/8" to the lower lifeline to hold up blocks. We have a couple done that way. They need to be just tight enough to not flop down.

The Garhauer gear has a fairly good reputation, too, I wouldn't worry about them.

Ann

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Pyxis156

So does this mean that you generally leave your snubber setup all the time even when you are not at anchor? We stow our snubber when it isn't being used so that may be one big difference in design criteria that I had not considered.

I had not considered having my snubber(s) setup semi-permanently but it is an interesting idea! I wondered when you wrote in a previous post that "dirt tended to collect under the snubber" but now it makes sense. It would certainly make things more convenient, and would also open the door to potentially using both snubbers at the same time with the larger snubber taking the load once the smaller snubber reaches its maximum amount of working load stretch. I would just need to calculate that length and then connect the larger snubber at the appropriate spot on the chain to take over when necessary.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts as they have given me a whole new approach to consider!

Yes, that's right. It was left up permanently. We had widish decks and as the snubber sits close to the edge, and is low and runs parallel to the deck, it is not something we ever tripped over. The snubber will age more quickly exposed permanently, but I doubt this is hugely significant (at least it wasn't or us, as hours at anchor well outweighed hours sailing, and as we never spent time tied to a marina or town jetty the snubber was in use a lot).

It is so much simpler if less preparation needs to be done either leaving an anchorage or reaching a new one.

In this application, loosely tying the LF rings up to a lifeline may not work once the snubber is not in use (the snubber will tend to move around when not under load). It depends on how high your toe rails are and how long the attachment between the LF ring and toe rail needs to be in order for the snubber to bypass deck fittings. That needs a bit of experimenting.

If there is no means of keeping a LF ring from hitting the deck, I have considered wrapping some leather around the rim and just lightly stitching it in place to provide some cushioning around the rim. I didn't get far with that idea, as I found the cross pieces of our new bollards are high enough that the LF ring will not contact the deck. A combination of a loose line from the LF ring to the lifeline and leather padding may work adequately, although it is not a very elegant solution.

If you hit on a good solution for how to generally keep any LF rings secured with dyneema from flopping and hitting the deck, it would be very useful. I think keeping the attachment very short is helpful, something possible using an openable Bullseye strop. With this last one I made that was super short, a strip of velcro secured lightly at the base of the LF ring may be all that is needed to keep it up. If thicker dyneema is used, it would be even better. Unfortunately, this doesn't help if the ring is secured horizontally rather than vertically.

SWL