Yankee or blade or...?

[jtsailjt]

I'm losing the Hyfield lever and putting my staysail on a furler so need to replace the 130 genoa that up until now has lived on my forward furler. I'm looking for practical advice from those who have experience with dual headsail masthead rigs similar to mine. Given that I will have a staysail always available on my inner forestay, and (among other reasons), tacking a 130 genoa will no longer be even remotely feasible, what should my new jib that will live on my forward furler look like and why?

[Kenomac]

Shouldn't it be a yankee if the staysail fills the lower gap? Plus it will be easier to see where you're going with a yankee cut 130%.

[Tayana42]

jtsailjt, I don't know about your Tayana 47 but on my 42 the yankee above the staysail works quite well. My staysail is permanently rigged and on a its own boom. All of my sails are low tech, cruising Dacron. If your sail inventory and controls are higher tech that might affect the choice more for the blade jib. Perhaps Uncivilized or Dockhead will comment on their experiences with blade jibs.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

what should my new jib that will live on my forward furler look like and why?

Here is the question - do you really honestly want/need to be able to sail well close hauled, or in practice do you really usually turn the engine on or go somewhere else if the destination is straight up wind?

The answer to your jib question will be driven by your answer to than practical question.

If you really want to be able to sail upwind well . . . . then like a 105% blade will be best. The normal double headsail cutter rig (yankee and staysail) is really not optimal for upwind. Single sails are usually (almost always better). In this case, get a decently large staysail, so at about 30 kts you can switch down to it.

But if you often use engine assist to get upwind, then like the biggest yankee you want to tack will be best. The yankee/staysail combo is quite good for close reaching. But you want the yankee as big as you are willing because as you go deeper the staysail becomes less effective.

If I were you I would consider a soft (dyneema) luff staysail on a zero type furler, on a 2:1 halyard, which you can either drop, or bring back to the mast. Done correctly that will be better in almost every way that a fixed staysail furler.

[Cheechako]

On my 44 and 47's I had about a 115%, high cut on the furler. I wanted a sail that I could see under readily that was good in some strongish winds. I used it up to almost 25- 30 knots of wind. Above that it got doused and the staysail drove the boat to hull speed no problem. I really liked this setup. The staysail and reefed main in 35 knots was a dream. Some of the best sailing out there and the boat moved fast and flat with power.
The headsail is shown in my Avatar (<<left) on the 44 footer.

[jtsailjt]

To answer Estars question, in light winds I tend to really love trying to sail upwind as well as possible (considering I'm in a heavy cruising sailboat), but once the wind gets above about 20 knots, for me it quickly loses its allure, especially offshore where the long fetch means bashing into pretty sizeable waves. In that situation I'd either back off a bit from the wind or douse the foresail(s), reef and tightly sheet the main, and motorsail at a moderate speed. But most of the time I'm not offshore and the wind is below 20 knots so I do get a big kick out of sailing to weather as well as I can. So, if I understand correctly, when tacking to windward I'd be better off using just the blade by itself in winds up to 20 knots or so and then switch to just the staysail? But if I had a Yankee, I'd use both it and the staysail at the same time? But if I was just close reaching in lighter winds, in order to increase sail area I could use both the blade and staysail together?

Is one choice going to be significantly harder to tack than the other?

If my questions regarding this seem silly, that's because I know so little about it but really want to make sure I learn as much as I can before making the choice. Thanks for the help.

[Cheechako]

With your staysail on a furler, it will be easier tacking the headsail. My staysail had hanks and the clew or knots would hang up there sometimes. I found once you got the tacking down you can release the sheet carefully while tacking the headsail will go right thru the slot. If you just dump it and dont turn properly then it doesnt work as well.
Tacking the staysail only with reefed main was a joy in heavier winds.
I just used the high cut 115 going to windward until the winds got high. It's just easier and the staysail doesnt help much going to windward anyway. Yes reaching or close reaching the pair work well together.
To me though the staysail benefit is to make a simple rig to adjust to wind condition.
Headsail + Main
Headsail + reefed main
Headsail/small furl + Double reefed main
Staysail and reefed main or double reefed main.

[SailingFan]

jtsailjt, you and I both want to know!

I currently have only two sails in my locker. One is a partially battened main, the other is the likely first replacement Genoa (from the stiching, it looks old, but not 1978 vintage, thank God ). They are both Dacron. Both seem serviceable. HOWEVER....

I also want to add to my sail inventory, I am on a fixed budget to be sure, and I am not looking to find only the latest tech out there nor am I able to shell out 700 bucks apiece for sails. If I could use real canvas I would consider it, if only because it is easier to stitch temporary repairs into and I could play around with the fabric to make my own sails! I am one sale day from trying Harbor Freight tarps (and in fact, I have a good story about a transit using just those things for sails!).

To make things clear, I am considering adding several legitimate but used sails that were made for other boats into my foresail arsenal (and possibly a smaller spare main for windy work), and using those differently sized sails as needed to fulfill each of several different roles rather than hunt down sails made specifically for my particular vessel. Who knows what will come my way, but the cost in dollars per sail should be less and I will find some things out while also gaining repair material for the sails that stay and a few other boaty projects I have in mind. I am of course going to have to work out some rigging issues as well, to make using those sails possible and beneficial.

Just don't get all catty at me if my storm jib one day says "Hobie" on it and has a little vinyl window.. The surfer will have sold the sail to me, I did not steal it from him/her.

So, all that said, please do ask as many questions as you think of, because I, too, will benefit, as will probably hundreds of other people who have not even figured out this forum exists yet. I will learn and share in your enlightenment to be sure! You may just be a little reluctant to tie alongside if my sail locker is being aired out and you are more dignified than I in sail complement...

[Suijin]

I agree with Evans on all points, but I'll add that my Valiant can sail higher when flying both the yankee and staysail together. Not sure why, but I'm assuming that that little bit of extra power moves the apparent wind forward a degree or so. Then again the Valiant is a true cutter with the mast almost in the middle of the boat.

If you go with a furler on your staysail, you're going to furl the headsail when you tack regardless of the size. Whether it's 110 or 135, high or low cut, it does not make all that much of a difference. Once you get in the habit of furling to tack it becomes second nature and doesn't seem like such a chore. Choose the sail based on performance and sailing conditions, not on the fact you might be able to wrestle it through the slot more easily.

And given that, when you're off the wind and the staysail is furled you're going to want the biggest headsail that you can for the most part.

I have kept my staysail stay on a hylift lever so I can bring it back to the mast of I'm doing lots of downwind work and want to be able to tack more easily. The rest of the time the sail lives in a bag, hanked on, on deck. Hoisting it is very easy given it's size, so much of the convenience of a furler overkill. Evans solution is a bit of a revelation. I'm going to look into it.

I'll also advise you to pay attention to the rest of your rigging when you're choosing a sail geometry. The previous owner of my boat had it fit with an enormous 135 low cut genoa, which given the mast position is probably closer to a 150 on most boats. Sheeting angles were awful, hung up on the spreaders, abused the lifelines. It was a nightmare. Threw on the 110 yankee that was moldering in a locker and it was like a new boat. Just sailed better in virtually all conditions.

[Tayana42]

I almost always sail with my staysail up. With it and the yankee I can close reach very well (about 30 degrees apparent). And when tacking the yankee comes across easier with the staysail set because the yankee doesn't get caught as easily on the staysail stay.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Tayana42

I almost always sail with my staysail up. With it and the yankee I can close reach very well (about 30 degrees apparent). And when tacking the yankee comes across easier with the staysail set because the yankee doesn't get caught as easily on the staysail stay.

Yep, I dont get the "furl your headsail to tack" thing at all....

[SailingFan]

How many here would suggest having a yankee cut sail available on a masthead sloop, mainly as a means to travel in higher winds as a main driver with ability retained to see better underneath and to reduce angle of heel? More specifically, on my old as hell 1978 Hunter 27...

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

To answer Estars question, in light winds I tend to really love trying to sail upwind as well as possible (considering I'm in a heavy cruising sailboat), but once the wind gets above about 20 knots, for me it quickly loses its allure, especially offshore where the long fetch means bashing into pretty sizeable waves. In that situation I'd either back off a bit from the wind or douse the foresail(s), reef and tightly sheet the main, and motorsail at a moderate speed. But most of the time I'm not offshore and the wind is below 20 knots so I do get a big kick out of sailing to weather as well as I can. So, if I understand correctly, when tacking to windward I'd be better off using just the blade by itself in winds up to 20 knots or so and then switch to just the staysail? But if I had a Yankee, I'd use both it and the staysail at the same time? But if I was just close reaching in lighter winds, in order to increase sail area I could use both the blade and staysail together?

Is one choice going to be significantly harder to tack than the other?

If my questions regarding this seem silly, that's because I know so little about it but really want to make sure I learn as much as I can before making the choice. Thanks for the help.

In wind up to 20-22 knots heading into the wind, we use a full main, full staysail and full yankee. Our first reef (furl) is the main, second is to the first reef point on the yankee, third is to the second reef on the yankee. Fourth, the yankee gets furled completely. Fifth the main, sixth main until only the staysail remains.

Most of the time we furl or partially furl the yankee when making a tack using the Reckmann hydraulic furler.

Notice how the sail plan keeps getting smaller and closer to the mast/center of the boat.

Ken

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by SailingFan

How many here would suggest having a yankee cut sail available on a masthead sloop, mainly as a means to travel in higher winds as a main driver with ability retained to see better underneath and to reduce angle of heel? More specifically, on my old as hell 1978 Hunter 27...

I think we have to be careful about the use of "yankee' Here. Traditionally, at least how I understand it, the Yankee is a quite narrow sail very high cut and of little use alone except in strong winds. The sails I have had in the 115-120% range, although high cut, are bigger and work far better in lighter winds than a real Yankee..
I view a real Yankee type like the headsail shown in this pic, vs the red lines representing perhaps the high cut 115% I have been talking about.:

[SailingFan]

From that image, I believe we are discussing the same sail, the one smaller than and higher than the red outlined one. I was not thinking of using it in light winds, though, but as a smaller sail to use when the larger sail was too much. Perhaps my application intent is faulty?