A dinghy as a lifeboat

[fish53]

Well I'm done here, PM me if there's something you want to say directly to me. I didn't intent this to become contentious but it has so in order to not distract from the conversation I'm unsubscribing from this thread.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by fish53

The inspection depends on use, a new raft for a fishing vessel usually gets the first two years and then annually after that, that's for SOLAS. My four person RFD with SOLAS inspection runs $600 and $400 if I have it equipped for just coastal. I have to say I'm absolutely amazed at the pushback on the use of liferafts and this bizarre idea of using a dinghy for lifesaving. I can only assume that some have no practical idea what it can be like out there preferring instead to believe rumor or rely on the Fastnet experience that happened forty years ago. I certainly understand not wanting the expense for something they may never use but that doesn't negate the facts. If you can't afford proper equipment then risk your life or don't go.

I haven’t had an inspected life raft onboard our 53 over the past 7 years and didn’t have a life raft on our Hunter for the two years before that, and haven’t felt unsafe at any time. This fact seems to bother you....

[contrail]

Originally Posted by fish53

As I've said numerous times in this thread I want you all to do as you see fit, it is after all your opinion. My opinion is you're wrong, don't like it tough that's why there's an ignore button. A CF poll is meaningless as many seem to be poorly informed, in my opinion.
As you appear poorly informed I'll help, lifesaving equipment like rafts are vastly improved from 1979, both in design and construction, in numerous maritime organizations around the world's opinion. You are correct that during Fastnet lives could have been saved if more had stayed with the boat, I'm wondering where you got the idea I implied otherwise. EPIRBS were available in 1979, that some chose not to carry them is most unfortunate. Your foolishness about expecting someone else to hop over and rescue you hardly deserves a response but if you want place your life in the hands of luck that's fine, I think it's neither realistic nor particularly well thought out, in my opinion. I have a 28 foot Cape Dory and I have plenty of room for my four person SOLAS raft and my dinghy I don't know what you have but I'm assuming it's smaller. After you do the calculations on providing sufficient flotation to make a ballasted sailboat unsinkable tell me where you're going to sleep or make coffee or use the head. Compartmentalization would help but few if any boats are built with that and converting would cost more than a raft and take valuable space as well as possibly make staying on the boat unpleasantly inconvenient. I'm sorry that you've decided that my desire to not see anyone die at sea as some sort of indictment or as some slight against you personally but so be it. At the risk of sounding pompous I suspect I've spent significantly more time at sea than you in places I doubt you're interested in going and seen a lot that you will never see. If you think you know better that's great confidence is usually a good thing, except when it's misplaced. The preceding has been in it's entirety my opinion and in no way is intended to influence anyone to do anything outside of what they believe is best for them. Happy sailing!

Did you read my earlier post about how much more stable a Tinker dinghy, with lifeboat attachment, was compared to a top of the line Switlick liferaft, as tested in actual, challenging, conditions? No? maybe you should.

[fish53]

Stable is not necessarily a valuable quality in a life raft. I read your post and looked at the Tinker and came away as unimpressed as I am with a Pudgy, sorry once again my opinion but you asked and I'm sorry I came back to this thread to reread something.

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by fish53

Stable is not necessarily a valuable quality in a life raft. I read your post and looked at the Tinker and came away as unimpressed as I am with a Pudgy, sorry once again my opinion but you asked and I'm sorry I came back to this thread to reread something.

Stable, as not easy to capsize is a very valuable quality in a life raft. Actually, THE most important quality in a life raft.

I have been rescued from a life raft, and imho I would probably have preferred the Tinker.

In almost all cases good dinghies will be able to rescue the crew. At least in our modern world, where rescue is just a few hours/days away, wherever you are in the world. There is only two situation I can think of where a life raft would give you a much higher chance of survival. One is cold waters, and the second is sinking in heavy weather. This is very uncommon, though. Most sinking are due to striking an object while sailing, collisions or groundings.

Everybody has to make their own risk analysis. Sailing has its inherent risks, but the risks are only slightly diminished by carrying a life raft (in most cases, I would definitely carry one if I would sail to the Arctic for example), compared to carrying a dinghy.

[fish53]

Originally Posted by MartinR

Stable, as not easy to capsize is a very valuable quality in a life raft. Actually, THE most important quality in a life raft.

I have been rescued from a life raft, and imho I would probably have preferred the Tinker.

In almost all cases good dinghies will be able to rescue the crew. At least in our modern world, where rescue is just a few hours/days away, wherever you are in the world. There is only two situation I can think of where a life raft would give you a much higher chance of survival. One is cold waters, and the second is sinking in heavy weather. This is very uncommon, though. Most sinking are due to striking an object while sailing, collisions or groundings.

Everybody has to make their own risk analysis. Sailing has its inherent risks, but the risks are only slightly diminished by carrying a life raft (in most cases, I would definitely carry one if I would sail to the Arctic for example), compared to carrying a dinghy.

Sorry but stable has nothing to do with being unable to capsize, your ballasted sailboat without a mast would be very difficult to capsize yet would not necessarily be stable. Being stable is a comfort issue not a survivability issue in the size vessels we're talking about. A flat bottom barge of 12x24 feet would be quite stable yet make a very poor survival craft and if overturned impossible to right. At this point I couldn't care less what you have on your boat but don't expect me to endorse fallacies. I guess I need to ignore this thread.

[sailorboy1]

I think how someone gets called out for no being able to accept others people's opinions, and they response by not accepting that opinion of themselves

I also like it when people are "done" with a thread and then come back with even more posts

There's so much fear driven stuff in boating (like life rafts) to address a fear that is very minor compared to things we all do and accept in everyday life that is so much more dangerous. In the end buy and equipment your boat with every "safety" item you can afford, justify,and store on your boat and don't worry about convincing others.

BTW - I don't have a lifeboat, but I have a dinghy and that's going to have to do.

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by fish53

Sorry but stable has nothing to do with being unable to capsize, your ballasted sailboat without a mast would be very difficult to capsize yet would not necessarily be stable. Being stable is a comfort issue not a survivability issue in the size vessels we're talking about. A flat bottom barge of 12x24 feet would be quite stable yet make a very poor survival craft and if overturned impossible to right. At this point I couldn't care less what you have on your boat but don't expect me to endorse fallacies. I guess I need to ignore this thread.

Stable in the technical sense means the integral of the stability curve. The higher, the less likely to capsize. You are talking about GM, which is basically a measure of a ships righting moment at zero list. Often ships with high GM also have high stability, but not always.

A sailboat without a mast is actually more likely to be rolled in waves, because the roll moment of inertia is lowered significantly, even if static stability is better. Stability is a complicated issue.

[fish53]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I think how someone gets called out for no being able to accept others people's opinions, and they response by not accepting that opinion of themselves

I also like it when people are "done" with a thread and then come back with even more posts

There's so much fear driven stuff in boating (like life rafts) to address a fear that is very minor compared to things we all do and accept in everyday life that is so much more dangerous. In the end buy and equipment your boat with every "safety" item you can afford, justify,and store on your boat and don't worry about convincing others.

BTW - I don't have a lifeboat, but I have a dinghy and that's going to have to do.

It's nice that someone can make you happy, I only come back because the comments are so entertaining.

[fish53]

[QUOTE=MartinR;2814077]Stable in the technical sense means the integral of the stability curve. The higher, the less likely to capsize. You are talking about GM, which is basically a measure of a ships righting moment at zero list. Often ships with high GM also have high stability, but not always.

A sailboat without a mast is actually more likely to be rolled in waves, because the roll moment of inertia is lowered significantly, even if static stability is better. Stability is a complicated issue.[/QUOT

I'm a bit confused about the issue of stability in survival craft, if a life raft were constructed of rigid material it would be quite stable as it is with what they are made of, especially ones with ballast chambers. The difference of course is the flexible nature of inflatable craft, they are difficult to stand in and they flex and move about considerably, their purpose is to save your life not make you comfortable or take you to town. Without ballast chambers their light weight can allow them to be blown around in high wind which is disconcerting but with an adequate enclosure you stay aboard and even if inverted can be righted without getting in the water. How do I know this? I've done it. If the chance that you may be tossed about in a plastic bag for awhile is more onerous than death then please don't get a life raft.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by fish53

I'm a bit confused about the issue of stability in survival craft, if a life raft were constructed of rigid material it would be quite stable as it is with what they are made of, especially ones with ballast chambers. The difference of course is the flexible nature of inflatable craft, they are difficult to stand in and they flex and move about considerably, their purpose is to save your life not make you comfortable or take you to town. Without ballast chambers their light weight can allow them to be blown around in high wind which is disconcerting but with an adequate enclosure you stay aboard and even if inverted can be righted without getting in the water. How do I know this? I've done it. If the chance that you may be tossed about in a plastic bag for awhile is more onerous than death then please don't get a life raft.

I'm a bit confused too.... I thought you checked out of this thread.

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by fish53

I'm a bit confused about the issue of stability in survival craft, if a life raft were constructed of rigid material it would be quite stable as it is with what they are made of, especially ones with ballast chambers.

Rigidity has very little to with stability. Basically all survival craft today, including modern life boats (rigid) and life rafts (inflatable) are more or less box shaped. This is because the box gives the best total stability, is not easy to overturn. The slight flexing of a life raft makes little difference in this. The water ballast bags are helping stability, because once the list is big enough, they are lifted out of the water and thereby making the side heavier. Also, the water ballast provides mass and thereby inertia, which also helps.

[fish53]

Originally Posted by MartinR

Rigidity has very little to with stability. Basically all survival craft today, including modern life boats (rigid) and life rafts (inflatable) are more or less box shaped. This is because the box gives the best total stability, is not easy to overturn. The slight flexing of a life raft makes little difference in this. The water ballast bags are helping stability, because once the list is big enough, they are lifted out of the water and thereby making the side heavier. Also, the water ballast provides mass and thereby inertia, which also helps.

Sorry I'm not allowed to respond, have a nice day.

[sailorboy1]

Thread has gotten childish now

[MartinR]

Why is nobody making survival canopies for modern inflatables? I mean, this can not be so hard, it has been done before. An inflatable with a canopy could be almost as good as a life raft, especially if the inflatable is of the high pressure floor variety. Would also be very good for RIBs. You could integrate water ballast tanks to be filled in emergency, which together with a canopy. would probably make this better than a life raft. Even self righting if the canopy is correctly designed.