Boat Bikes II

[250224]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Anything other than a Brommie is "substandard"? The only thing the Brommie even arguably is superior than all others is the fold. It's certainly worse in every other way compared to the much more expensive, high spec, custom cut Pakit, as you would expect (or Bike Friday wouldn't sell any bikes) -- weight is the least of the Pakit advantages over a Brommie. The Brommie rides far worse than my Jetstream.

As I have a relatively small boat, size is everything and as you mention, Brompton is good there: 58,5 x 56,5 x 27 cm (vs. Dahon Quix 81 x 31 x 82 cm vs. Friday Pakit 96 cm x 61 cm x 25 cm).

I again looked at Pakit and I'm still not really intrigued (as for example I would be for a Hummingbird [1] if I wanted to go modern and spend such money). The Pakit for me is less elegant than a Brompton and I'm a bit sceptical about the belt (more friction? lifespan?). I don't need rapid firing 8 gears but if I would, I think my trade-off would be different and I'd go with a Brompton Electric or a "real normal" bike (but buy a larger boat first).

Not all good with Bromptons though: for one, mine was stolen... and then it had rust issues (which were already there when I bought the bike second-hand; note to myself, better rust prevention, steel has disadvantages).

Now atm I use a micro kickboard which is great fun and super little size. BUT the small wheels are not ideal when the streets are bad. It was an interesting experiment but it failed and I plan to buy a Brompton again.

[1] https://www.hummingbirdbike.com/shop-1/multi-speed-bike

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kelkara

Of course there are ...
https://www.traditionalcycleshop.co....s-double-pylon


But more seriously ... if a separable bike is ok, then maybe look at some of the other Moultons.

I have admired Moultons since -- what -- the 70's as a boy?



My Jetstream is very much channeling Sir Alex's vision, and I can say that it really works. Riding a good 20" wheel bike with suspension is a blast. A64 will chime in now and talk about the energy lost in bike suspensions -- and he's right of course -- but a well-designed and tuned rear suspension need not squat and burn up much pedalling energy (careful geometry and separately adjustable jounce and rebound damping on my Jetstream's air shocks). Sir Alex's bike gets back some some of this power with the reduced wind resistance of the smaller wheels. I was amazed at how fast I was on the Jetstream -- the pace is pretty much like what I'm used to on a decent road bike. Not that in this stage of my life I'm all that fast any more, but I like a brisk pedal now and then, and when I carried the Jetsream on board I used to not that rarely knock back 50 miles in an afternoon, wearing cleats, just for fun and to see the countryside, when arriving in a new place. The Jetstream was not cut to measure for me, unlike my old road bikes, but fits me astonishingly well. Obviously won't be doing that on a Brommie

[250224]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

A bike Friday does in fact achieve the comfort and ride ability of a “normal” bike, that is exactly their niche and has been since the beginning,

Please excuse my doubt. Do you know this from self experience?

That would be great if they can achive "normal" bike comfort. As much as I loved my Brompton, it was a big difference when I lent a (normal dutch) marine bike. Much less pedaling energy needed.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by blu3534

As I have a relatively small boat, size is everything and as you mention, Brompton is good there: 58,5 x 56,5 x 27 cm (vs. Dahon Quix 81 x 31 x 82 cm vs. Friday Pakit 96 cm x 61 cm x 25 cm).

I again looked at Pakit and I'm still not really intrigued (as for example I would be for a Hummingbird [1] if I wanted to go modern and spend such money). The Pakit for me is less elegant than a Brompton and I'm a bit sceptical about the belt (more friction? lifespan?). I don't need rapid firing 8 gears but if I would, I think my trade-off would be different and I'd go with a Brompton Electric or a "real normal" bike (but buy a larger boat first).
. . .

Yes, the fold and the size is the very reason why the Brommie remains at the top of my short list, despite the other drawbacks. Even on a larger boat like mine, there is simply no extra space to easily accomodate bicycles. When cruising shorthanded, I used to put the Jetstream in a bag and in one of the unused cabins, but I often have guests and/or crew and all cabins are full -- what then? The lazarette, and that is just not the place for a package of that size and with vulnerable parts hanging off it. The Brommie with the chain and everything protected in the middle of the fold is just the thing for the laz, and that is so important that I'm considering sacrificing a multitude of other qualities to get that.


As to the Pakit -- I haven't ridden one (I've ridden Brommies). It may or may not be intriguing. It's a much better machine than a Brommie, but my fear is that it is so much impossible to have a real bicycle type ride on a 16" bike that all that engineering is for naught, so waste of money and time and at a further cost of a somewhat worse package (as you correctly point out) than the Brommie. As to the belt -- I have no doubts about that based on a lot of reading -- I'm convinced it's the ideal drive train for a boat bike. But a 16" bike is going to ride like a circus clown bike -- I guess -- no matter how well designed and built it is -- at least that is my fear. So if I'm going to anyway be riding a circus clown bike, then maybe it ought to be the one which has the totally superior fold and packaging. I'd love a belt drive, but the chain is maybe not a big problem on the Brommie considering how it's uniquely protected when the bike is folded.



That's my logic as of today anyway.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Idlegreg

Have you looked at these guys ?
Airnimal | Folding Bikes


If you are considering a bike that needs a little dismantling to stow I seem to remember they have some way to break down into a neat case.

Nice bikes, but way too big for me I think.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

A bike Friday does in fact achieve the comfort and ride ability of a “normal” bike, that is exactly their niche and has been since the beginning,

Originally Posted by blu3534

Please excuse my doubt. Do you know this from self experience?

That would be great if they can achive "normal" bike comfort. As much as I loved my Brompton, it was a big difference when I lent a (normal dutch) marine bike. Much less pedaling energy needed.

The 20" Bike Fridays like other good 20" bikes are pretty close in performance to "normal" bikes. They ride more roughly and can't take bumps as well due to the smaller radius wheels, which is why Moultons were designed with suspensions added as key part of the small wheel formula.


But 16" bikes? I would love to be wrong about this, but I really doubt that it's possible to make one of those work like a "normal" bike. And without a suspension rough is not the word for how they ride -- make sure your dental insurance is paid up. I admit my experience is limited, but I used to have an old 16" Dahon, and I've ridden Brommies, and I think I know how it feels. It's really chalk and cheese compared to a good 20" bike, especially to one with a suspension as Sir Alex designed them.

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

but I like a brisk pedal now and then, and when I carried the Jetsream on board I used to not that rarely knock back 50 miles in an afternoon, wearing cleats, just for fun and to see the countryside, when arriving in a new place. The Jetstream was not cut to measure for me, unlike my old road bikes, but fits me astonishingly well. Obviously won't be doing that on a Brommie

Well, you won't know if the same is true for a Brompton until you get on one for a test-ride! ... For me the Brompton S-type is a surprisingly good fit ... It's a little hard to show in a photo, but the saddle, handlebars, pedals and rear-wheel contact are exactly the same geometry as my custom fit road bike. The wheelbase of the Brompton is a little longer, so the front wheel touches the road a little further forward ... but all-in-all a surprisingly good ride.


Compared to the road-bike, riding the Brompton is:
a) Heavier
b) Not as stiff
c) Only six speed.
d) Twitchy steering (but you get used to this)
e) The small wheels are nastier on rough road surfaces and potholes.


But nevertheless I've still had no problems going for 50-100 mile rides through the countryside ... but really the choice of a Brompton is all about the compact fold.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by blu3534

Please excuse my doubt. Do you know this from self experience?

That would be great if they can achive "normal" bike comfort. As much as I loved my Brompton, it was a big difference when I lent a (normal dutch) marine bike. Much less pedaling energy needed.

Yes I do, and as I said before I don’t ride cobblestones, my first real bike was a Cannondale, and nothing is harsher than an all aluminum bike, so I learned where not to ride.
If you do ride cobblestones, you need a suspension mountain bike, really.
I have hit cobblestones in Germany and gotten off and walked and as I wore Speedplay cleats, walking wasn’t exactly easy, but with 700x20 wheels your going to fall on Cobblestones, especially with 18mm tires which I used to ride.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

So what you're suggesting is just take any road bike and simply take it apart?

I have never had a folding bike so I can't fairly compare the options. But I do travel with bikes quite a bit

So, well, I would first start with a light one.

And then yea, you have a range of disassembly depending on how small you want to get it. wheels off, pedals off, handlebars turned sideways, handlebars off, fork off. None of it is rocket science, and if you do it regularly you can probably do the full airport ninja disassemble in 10 minutes (there are videos showing people doing it faster than that but they skip showing some of the pre and post steps laying out bits and such).

I have two travel bikes, one carbon and the other Ti. I prefer the carbon, but if I think there will be rough handling (like bad airline luggage handling) I use the Ti which is pretty much unbreakable (but a bit heavier). I looked into getting frame couplers built into the Ti frame, which would have halved the finished package size, but they added more weight than I wanted and it was already small enough.

You know the old saying - fast, strong, cheap .... pick two - travel bikes are like that. I have gone fast and strong and most people would choke at the price of my bikes, but compared to 'yachting' its a pretty inexpensive activity.

On suspensions . . . . there is quite a bit of recent development activity due to the explosive growth of non-technical gravel riding/racing (biggest area of growth in US riding by far) and 'all road' bikes. My gravel bike has some really well tuned suspension - you don't notice it on the road at all but then it makes a noticeable improvement when you do hit cobblestones or somewhat rougher trail sections. It has won Paris Roubaix so it is quite race-able/not power robbing.

[roverhi]

Originally Posted by blu3534

Please excuse my doubt. Do you know this from self experience?

That would be great if they can achive "normal" bike comfort. As much as I loved my Brompton, it was a big difference when I lent a (normal dutch) marine bike. Much less pedaling energy needed.

I've been riding a Bike Friday NWT with 20" wheels. Since I got it my other two bikes have been hanging in the garage unused. The bike is very comfortable to ride though that could be because it was custom built for me using there very meticulous measuring instructions. Haven't done any really long rides but it's a 12 mile round trip to the boat each time I go and have done more than a few 20 plus mile rides on the bike. Used it flying commercial when I commuted to the boat in Alameda. Would fly in to Oakland, unpack the bike from it's suitcase, set up the suitcase as a trailer and ride to the boat at Fortman's Marina in Alameda. No additional baggage charge for the bike. Got the boat ready to sail home to Kona mostly using the BF. Mainly had to rent a car to provision at Costco.

The bike has flat bars with horns which give me a variety of hand positions. It's set up with seat and handle bar at the same height. I'm 75 and a deeper lean angle just isn't going to happen with my geriatric back. Almost never used the drop position on touring bike. At my age I'm no speedster so regularly get passed by the hard core riders but I seem to be a lot more comfortable than they are. Occasionally do embarrass one of the big tire guys. With the three speed hub and 9 speed cassette have a gear for everything. The 20" rims give quicker handling and acceleration than 700 rims but aren't a problem. Have an acquaintance who is hardcore and actually did the Ironman on his Pocket Rocket road model of the BF. He and his wife took their NWT's to Europe and spent a month touring. So yes, they are comfortable.

I've thought about getting a Pakit with electric motor. Getting passed going up hill by fat ladies on their electric cruisers grates on me.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kelkara

Well, you won't know if the same is true for a Brompton until you get on one for a test-ride! ... For me the Brompton S-type is a surprisingly good fit ... It's a little hard to show in a photo, but the saddle, handlebars, pedals and rear-wheel contact are exactly the same geometry as my custom fit road bike. The wheelbase of the Brompton is a little longer, so the front wheel touches the road a little further forward ... but all-in-all a surprisingly good ride.

Well I've ridden Brommies and more than one. Yes, they fit me reasonably well. I guess I'm average enough in my dimensions that standard bikes usually fit me OK. But the "cockpit" -- if you can call it that on a Brommie -- is not comparable to that of the Jetstream, which on top of that has a lot of adjustments, Syntace VRO stem, Ergon grips, a really good saddle, etc etc etc.

Originally Posted by Kelkara

. . Compared to the road-bike, riding the Brompton is:
a) Heavier
b) Not as stiff
c) Only six speed.
d) Twitchy steering (but you get used to this)
e) The small wheels are nastier on rough road surfaces and potholes.


But nevertheless I've still had no problems going for 50-100 mile rides through the countryside ... but really the choice of a Brompton is all about the compact fold.

100 miles on a Brommie!! I'm impressed. I think that would be challenging for me.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

. . . On suspensions . . . . there is quite a bit of recent development activity due to the explosive growth of non-technical gravel riding/racing (biggest area of growth in US riding by far) and 'all road' bikes. My gravel bike has some really well tuned suspension - you don't notice it on the road at all but then it makes a noticeable improvement when you do hit cobblestones or somewhat rougher trail sections. It has won Paris Roubaix so it is quite race-able/not power robbing.

Yes, my Jetstream has the "German-A" "Kilo" suspension:





It is fairly fiddly to set up with multiple adjustments, but once you get it right, it is amazingly plush, and does not noticeably absorb power. I absolutely love it. Cobblestones -- rough roads -- curbs -- just soaks them up. My experience was just like RoverHi's -- once I got on this bike I forgot about normal road bikes (like RoverHi and unlike you, I do not race or even ride all that hard anymore, although I do wear cleats and like to stretch out my legs from time to time).



Another great advantage of a suspension on any vehicle, not excluding bicycles, is that it helps keep the tires in better contact with the road, so improved braking and cornering.


I think A64 would be really surprised, if he road a bike like mine.

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well I've ridden Brommies and more than one. Yes, they fit me reasonably well. I guess I'm average enough in my dimensions that standard bikes usually fit me OK. But the "cockpit" -- if you can call it that on a Brommie -- is not comparable to that of the Jetstream, which on top of that has a lot of adjustments, Syntace VRO stem, Ergon grips, a really good saddle, etc etc etc.

Yeah, There are definite compromises you have to live with. There's not a whole lot of adjustments and improvements possible ... stubby bar ends can be added without affecting the fold and add a lot to the comfort of the handlebars, SPD quick-release pedals are great, and of course you should throw away the default Brompton saddle and fit a seat of your choice ... Aftermarket hacks are available to increase gear range, but if you stick to the factory six speed (max), you really have to choose whether you want lower gears for grinding up hills, or higher gears for screaming along with a tailwind, but not both. I find one thing I do miss is not having a top-tube that I can rest a thigh against when standing out of the saddle.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

100 miles on a Brommie!! I'm impressed. I think that would be challenging for me.

With my current fitness I think I'd be pretty challenged at the moment too ... but it's nothing compared to what people are doing:
https://www.16inchwheels.uk/2015/08/...on-a-brompton/
https://www.16inchwheels.uk/2015/08/...-of-bromptons/
It will never ride as well as your Jetstream, but big rides are quite possible ... It's all a question of how much you lust after the Brompton's folded size.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kelkara

. . . It will never ride as well as your Jetstream, but big rides are quite possible ... It's all a question of how much you lust after the Brompton's folded size.

Well, that's impressive. I guess Brompton stock went up a little on my list. I wouldn't have hoped to be able to make "big rides" on ANY 16" wheel circus clown bike.

[MAJICDAN]

If they are not measured in inches I will not buy them