Outboards are incredibly polluting - WOW

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by NPCampbell

. . . However, I don't believe we are there yet with dinghy outboards. If you want an equivalent electric outboard, you have to be able to live with the initial expense, weight, poor range, and long charging times. This will be viable for some but not for most. Batteries are still the problem. With a little time and market pressure we'll get there.

I think the latest electric outboards will work for many cruisers already.

You can configure them for any amount of range if you keep a spare battery or two on board, but even with one battery you get more than an hour of full throttle running with Torqueedo.

They are lighter than petrol outboards and much easier to carry and store, because (a) they can be taken apart easily and carried in smaller bits; (b) they can be carried and stored in any position; (c) they can be kept belowdecks because there is no petrol in them to leak into the bilge and create an explosion risk.

At the moment there are two downsides:

(a) they are costly compared to petrol; and

(b) not powerful enough to plane the dinghy (the models which are reasonable in terms of cost and weight)

All this is OK for my use case and I may well acquire a Torqeedo or similar in the near future. I hate small four stroke outboards as you just can't keep the carbs unclogged. I think the amount of pollution from a small 4 stroke outboard is trivial (a year's worth of my use is probably equivalent to a day's worth of meat eating, and I'm 365 days a year without meat or dairy), and anyway I would be charging the Torqeedo from a diesel generator, so I don't think environment is much of a reason to switch in my case. But for me (a) silence; (b) carrying and storage convenience; (c) no carb or starting issues; (d) no maintenance are really, really big pluses.

For those in the Caribbean or other places where you sometimes need to go long distances at high speed, electric might not be a good solution. But for some people having both might be a good option - a larger petrol outboard which will plane the dinghy well, which you only use in special cases, and an electric for normal short distance ferry duty. That's kind of what I'm looking at.

Yes, Sean, I'm all in favor of oars and sails on everything possible, but it's not realistic for some of us. It's not always possible to anchor very near your landing spot, and sometimes you have to get people and supplies upwind either to shore or back to the boat. Some of us are not that young or athletic any more. Inflatable dinghies don't row worth a carp. So for some use cases, power of some kind is really needed.

[Baby tug]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Kalimantan - Indonesia (By the way no useable sunshine for 10 days).

Bitung, Lembeh - Indonesia
Palawan - Philippines

Cocos Keeling - Australia

Faro - Portugal


To mention a few.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think the latest electric outboards will work for many cruisers already.

You can configure them for any amount of range if you keep a spare battery or two on board, but even with one battery you get more than an hour of full throttle running with Torqueedo.

They are lighter than petrol outboards and much easier to carry and store, because (a) they can be taken apart easily and carried in smaller bits; (b) they can be carried and stored in any position; (c) they can be kept belowdecks because there is no petrol in them to leak into the bilge and create an explosion risk.

At the moment there are two downsides:

(a) they are costly compared to petrol; and

(b) not powerful enough to plane the dinghy (the models which are reasonable in terms of cost and weight)

All this is OK for my use case and I may well acquire a Torqeedo or similar in the near future. I hate small four stroke outboards as you just can't keep the carbs unclogged. I think the amount of pollution from a small 4 stroke outboard is trivial (a year's worth of my use is probably equivalent to a day's worth of meat eating, and I'm 365 days a year without meat or dairy), and anyway I would be charging the Torqeedo from a diesel generator, so I don't think environment is much of a reason to switch in my case. But for me (a) silence; (b) carrying and storage convenience; (c) no carb or starting issues; (d) no maintenance are really, really big pluses.

For those in the Caribbean or other places where you sometimes need to go long distances at high speed, electric might not be a good solution. But for some people having both might be a good option - a larger petrol outboard which will plane the dinghy well, which you only use in special cases, and an electric for normal short distance ferry duty. That's kind of what I'm looking at.

Yes, Sean, I'm all in favor of oars and sails on everything possible, but it's not realistic for some of us. It's not always possible to anchor very near your landing spot, and sometimes you have to get people and supplies upwind either to shore or back to the boat. Some of us are not that young or athletic any more. Inflatable dinghies don't row worth a carp. So for some use cases, power of some kind is really needed.

Well written all good points , but I don’t think Anybody mentioned propane yet , propane solves most of the problems you have with gas , I think that might work

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Baby tug

Well written all good points , but I don’t think Anybody mentioned propane yet , propane solves most of the problems you have with gas , I think that might work

A very good point.


Mercury have a new 5hp propane motor. Doesn't seem to be available in Europe. But that might be a great solution to the carb clogging plague of small 4 strokes, for those who can get a hold of one.



I don't much like propane on board but for this use it's not really worse than petrol. Totally solves the carb clogging problem and much better than petrol environmentally.


Cheaper than electric, no charging. Heavier, harder to carry and store. More powerful.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

A very good point.
Mercury have a new 5hp propane motor...

And the Mercury Marine “Avator” electric outboard is expected to be available in 2023.
➥ https://plugboats.com/new-mercury-el...g-debut-miami/
➥ https://youtu.be/f4X34c_v4sI

[NPCampbell]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

They are lighter than petrol outboards and much easier to carry and store,
because (a) they can be taken apart easily and carried in smaller bits; (b)

The small electric outboards weigh about the same as gas if they are configured with the ultra low range batteries in them. Torqeedo 3HP has around 1/37th of a gallon of gas equivalent, ePropulsion 3HP around 1/26th. A suzuki 3HP weighs 30 pounds. A Tohatsu 2.5HP is heavier at 40 pounds. However, being able to break apart some of the electric models is a definite plus.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

At the moment there are two downsides:

(a) they are costly compared to petrol; and

(b) not powerful enough to plane the dinghy (the models which are reasonable in terms of cost and weight)

You can plane with electrics. Both the 10-20HP models and the 3HP models run about 250-300% the price of gas models.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

anyway I would be charging the Torqeedo from a diesel generator,

I'm assuming you would charge your house batteries from diesel as it takes 10+ hours to charge even a 3HP Torqeedo. This is one of the big inconveniences with only having a run time of 1/2 hour at WOT.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

(c) no carb or starting issues; (d) no maintenance are really, really big pluses.

This is the primary reason I swapped my lawn equipment from gas. I'd winterize all my gear and invariably I'd need to rebuild one of them every year. My time is worth more than the time than it takes to travel to the store, pick up a carb kit and then install it. I'd rather buy a new model every time it has a problem than spend 3 hours jacking with it. However, I won't do that strictly out of principal. Electric solved that. I have a rule for gas powered anything now. I won't buy it unless it has EFI. This pretty much means I won't be buying any gas powered device less than 9.9 HP.

[zstine]

Originally Posted by NPCampbell

The small electric outboards weigh about the same as gas if they are configured with the ultra low range batteries in them. Torqeedo 3HP has around 1/37th of a gallon of gas equivalent, ePropulsion 3HP around 1/26th. A suzuki 3HP weighs 30 pounds. A Tohatsu 2.5HP is heavier at 40 pounds. However, being able to break apart some of the electric models is a definite plus.
.

Wait, Are you comparing E-motors with integral batteries to a 3hp and 2.5hp ICE engine with no fuel!? No fair! haha


A Renogy 100Ahr, 12V $500 battery weighs 28lbs, equal weight to 5gal of gas. It is not that heavy and would give you about an hour running at almost 2hp. Enough to do a few trips to the dink dock.


Recharging with Diesel generator makes no sense. You need a solar array IMO otherwise your not doing much good for the environment.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by zstine

Wait, Are you comparing E-motors with integral batteries to a 3hp and 2.5hp ICE engine with no fuel!? No fair! haha


A Renogy 100Ahr, 12V $500 battery weighs 28lbs, equal weight to 5gal of gas. It is not that heavy and would give you about an hour running at almost 2hp. Enough to do a few trips to the dink dock.

…..

Originally Posted by NPCampbell

The small electric outboards weigh about the same as gas if they are configured with the ultra low range batteries in them. Torqeedo 3HP has around 1/37th of a gallon of gas equivalent, ePropulsion 3HP around 1/26th. A suzuki 3HP weighs 30 pounds. A Tohatsu 2.5HP is heavier at 40 pounds. However, being able to break apart some of the electric models is a definite plus.



…..

You are both wrong but in opposite directions.

4-stroke outboards get 5-7hp-hr/gal. Assuming high end that’s 7hp-hr/gal * 0.746kW/HP = 5.222kWhr/gal at the prop.

The Renogy has 1.2kWhr of energy at 100% discharge. Assuming 80% discharge and 95% motor efficiency then 1200Whr * 0.80 * 0.95 = 912Whr usable at prop.
5,222 / 912 = 1/5.7 gal equivalent.

The Torqueedo Travel 1103 has a 915Whr battery according to their site. I assume that’s usable.
915Whr * 0.95% efficiency = 869Whr.
5222 / 869 = 1/6 gal equivalent.

[zstine]

Originally Posted by Adelie

You are both wrong but in opposite directions.

4-stroke outboards get 5-7hp-hr/gal. Assuming high end that’s 7hp-hr/gal * 0.746kW/HP = 5.222kWhr/gal at the prop.

The Renogy has 1.2kWhr of energy at 100% discharge. Assuming 80% discharge and 95% motor efficiency then 1200Whr * 0.80 * 0.95 = 912Whr usable at prop.
5,222 / 912 = 1/5.7 gal equivalent.
.

I don't see you showing anything that contradicts my post. How am I wrong?

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by zstine

Recharging with Diesel generator makes no sense. You need a solar array IMO otherwise your not doing much good for the environment.

When will people get off of the solar band wagon there are places with NO SUN.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

When will people get off of the solar band wagon there are places with NO SUN.

Few and far between, the sun shines pretty well all places on earth.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Adelie

You are both wrong but in opposite directions.

4-stroke outboards get 5-7hp-hr/gal. Assuming high end that’s 7hp-hr/gal * 0.746kW/HP = 5.222kWhr/gal at the prop.

The Renogy has 1.2kWhr of energy at 100% discharge. Assuming 80% discharge and 95% motor efficiency then 1200Whr * 0.80 * 0.95 = 912Whr usable at prop.
5,222 / 912 = 1/5.7 gal equivalent.

The Torqueedo Travel 1103 has a 915Whr battery according to their site. I assume that’s usable.
915Whr * 0.95% efficiency = 869Whr.
5222 / 869 = 1/6 gal equivalent.

All I know is I watched an elderly gentlemen row in two others laboriously as his electric torqueedo ran out of juice. He charged it at the cafe , but could get it reconnected , it looks friendishly complicated with two cables etc.

He rowed back out ( it was quite a way )

I patted my Mariner 3.5 hp on its head.

I test drive two electric outboards , I’m not impressed. Battery capacity is too low , price is too high , it’s a few years away yet.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Yes, I think about this every time I consider a new motor. I can hardly manage to muscle around my existing 2-stroke. I can't image doing it with a motor which weighs 50 bs more.

I don’t know- perhaps in smaller HP it’s a difference. But there it’s becoming urban legend - the venerable, oil spewing Enduro 15 weights 82 lbs and my relatively clean Tohatsu 15hp EFI 4 stroke weighs only 13 lbs more. And, it’s quiet and doesn’t leave me stinking like outboard exhaust

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

All I know is I watched an elderly gentlemen row in two others laboriously as his electric torqueedo ran out of juice. He charged it at the cafe , but could get it reconnected , it looks friendishly complicated with two cables etc.

He rowed back out ( it was quite a way )

I patted my Mariner 3.5 hp on its head.

I test drive two electric outboards , I’m not impressed. Battery capacity is too low , price is too high , it’s a few years away yet.

The ePropulsion Spirit, current model, or Torqueedo Travel 1103, will both give about an hour at full throttle, or a couple at half.

Not as much stored power as a full tank on my Mercury 3.5, but it's plenty for ferry duty within a reasonable radius. You get a very accurate read on range available (which you don't have with a petrol tank), so I think it's not hard at all to manage the range and avoid running out.

Of course this presumes you have a good charging source on board, and if you don't, electric outboards are not for you. But I have a heavy duty generator so not a problem to charge the outboard every evening.

I think this would work fine for my particular use case (YMMV of course), especially if I get my old Selva 8 running again to use as an alternate motor for when I need more speed and range.

However I don't think I will do that this year. I've bought a fuel filter for my Mercury 3.5 and will see if that, in combination with alkyd fuel, solves the carb problems. We shall see.

[Rumrace]

Well Japan and England are building Liquid Hydrogen infrastructure specifically for marine.
The nah sayers and fast math guys in this forum shout no can’t be done from the rafters...
Well Toyota Yanmar Yamaha have done it. Toyota has produced liquid hydrogen a float. They have producing liquid nitrogen using electricity generated on board. They are within a couple months of being able to make the 28’ Hydrogen Cruiser self fuelling. It already had the dual tank set up in it. .

Canada built a Coast to Coast electric highway while the US banned Tesla sales by state. So being influenced by loud “ can’t “ societies has not been effective for several decades. That mind set has enabled China to produce junk copies of aging tech and change perceived values like a Chinese lithium system which is 50% of it claim.
Adapting a weed whacker into an out board replacing the Ni Cad battery with a truly poor quality lithium battery and putting a Merc label on it is a facade.

I don’t think my 4hp motor pollutes much but it has more pollution than the future will tolerate.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by zstine

I don't see you showing anything that contradicts my post. How am I wrong?

Oops, misread your post as saying a 100Ahr battery had energy equivalent to 5gal of gas.

Nope, the battery weighs about same as 5gal of gas.

Sorry about that.