Alternative Anchor Hauling Method

[KISS]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Actually it is uncommon - mainly because of all the real world difficulties in setting them - and one has to go to a lot of effort to prevent both tangling and chafe.

What efforts specifically?

Some technique, some bit of gear?

[Adelie]

With nylon the line is going to chafe on the bottom whenever the rode is not tight.

With polypro line it becomes a hazard for anyone passing in front of you. Using yellow line is a partial solution, as it makes the line more visible during the day and somewhat more visible at night as long as anyone motoring in front of you is shining a light forward AND paying attention.
A secondary issue with polypro is strength and UV resistance. Black polypro is more UV resistant but is less visible to others. Being significantly weaker than nylon, a larger diameter rode is needed, though, this is retrieving line so maybe not.

Here's the better idea for retrieving the anchor without a windlass. Run the anchor rode thru a chain pawl just behind the bow roller. Retrieving by hand involves sitting the on deck pulling in a chunk of chain then leaning forward to grab another chunk. Whatever length you have gained is held in between holds by the pawl.
If the load exceeds what you can haul in by hand, either use a block and tackle to some hardpoint forward or take a line back to a winch. In either case a chain hook is what grabs the rode.

Lewmar versions available at Westmarine: LEWMAR Chain Stoppers | West Marine
Integrated with bow roller: Anchor roller w/integrated pawl

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by KISS

If the only way to haul anchor in these conditions is to sail/motor up on it, if no winch will do the job, then what different does it make (for these conditions) whether I have a winch or not?

That is the quesiton at hand...to winch...or not to winch

If you'd bought an anchoring book as I suggested, or did some more research, you'd learn that, first, the LAST thing you do with a windlass is to use it to pull the boat to the anchor. It kills the windlass.

The TRICK is to get the boat above the anchor.

[Stu Jackson]

Another thing occurred to me: The experiences you are getting, which you keep ignoring, are based on real world experiences.

If your ideas were so darned good, dontcha think after 1,000 years of boating, and maybe a century or two of recreational boating, someone woulda come up with it and everybody would be using your idea?

They aren't.

Why are you so stubborn?

Buy a book or buy a boat or both.

Good luck.

[MBWhite]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Why are you so stubborn?

Mr. Jackson,

I believe that is the point. SS appears to have no desire to actually go sailing since he has never ever posted any actual personal information nor expressed any queries about crewing on anyone's boat.

Maybe he suffers from chronic motion sickness, who knows?

Anyway, the thread does serve a purpose in that it has inspired others to post on their experiences and I find that informative in it's own right.

I do find it interesting that all through this thread SS has not considered that a steel 50' fixer-upper will most likely have an appropriate windlass already onboard......

[gjordan]

I didnt think so at first, but now I suspect we have SCOOBERT 2.0 _____Grant.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by KISS

What efforts specifically?

Some technique, some bit of gear?

Technique.
Think about it, you got to get another anchor out in front of the boat, usually with one already out. Dink it our, swim it out with anchor supported by a float or retrieve the first one, drop one and then move the boat across the wind a bit and drop the other - all with two rodes, all with probably bad weather and increasing swells, sometimes dark, other boats around and oh, no motor!!!!

No, sorry don't think about it, just try it and you will find your own technique...

[KISS]

So...

Hearing what everyone's said, and pondering it some more, I've decided to scrap this idea. I'm certain it would work sometimes, but I have to agree that other times it would chafe and tangle. Something that unreliable can't be my primary method for raising the anchor.

On the other hand, I'm encouraged to hear so many people endorsing the ultra-KISS pawl method, even for relatively heavy ground tackle. That was my first choice anyway, so I'm just going to stick with that.

Thanks to everyone who offered constructive criticism and advice,

The rest of you....

KISS

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by KISS

I understand how MA works.

Actually it does, because they number the models based on the MA at the lowest speed. [B]

The instruction manuals give the MA, which is the same as the model number. If they're outright lying about the MA of their winches, I'd be pretty surprised. Somebody could sue the pants off them for fraudulent adverting. I could see if they were ignoring friction or assuming "laboratory conditions" etc, but you're telling me the MA figures cited by the company are pure fantasy? Pulled out of thin air? Sorry, I don't buy that.

Hmm... I don't recall saying anything about pure fantasy or being pulled out of thin air but I did say "that is usually a proposed mechanical advantage suggest by the manufacturer for marketing purposes." You are free to disagree with the manufacturer's word; me, I am going to take their word about their winches. FWIW, as the winches get bigger and more gearing the model numbers closer approximate real world experience but IRRC, the models you noted where single speed units, i.e. no gearing involved. So to repeat myself - just this once - the MA is dependant on the line diameter (as this changes the effective drum diameter) and the length of the winch handle both of which is not controlled by the manufacturer. I do note that you already know this.


As I said earlier, I wouldn't be using an existing winch. I'd be installing one especially for the purpose of hauling the anchor, bolted to a steel plate welded to the hull at the bow: just like I would do with a windlass.

And, by the factory specs (which I do not believe are fictional), the winches are much stronger (higher WLL) than the windlasses. And both have to deal with shock loads.

Actually why don't you try out the idea and let us all know how it works out - I'm always happy to be proved wrong

If you use a self tailing one, it will even be easier...

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by KISS

So...

Hearing what everyone's said, and pondering it some more, I've decided to scrap this idea. I'm certain it would work sometimes, but I have to agree that other times it would chafe and tangle. Something that unreliable can't be my primary method for raising the anchor.

On the other hand, I'm encouraged to hear so many people endorsing the ultra-KISS pawl method, even for relatively heavy ground tackle. That was my first choice anyway, so I'm just going to stick with that.

.....
KISS

Good call - keep it KISS!

[KISS]

Originally Posted by Wotname

You are free to disagree with the manufacturer's word; me, I am going to take their word about their winches.

I'm going to take the manufacturer word, as printed in their manuals, over the word of some anonymous insider as quoted by some anonymous poster on an internet forum.

the models you noted where single speed units, i.e. no gearing involved.

Harken

Note how there's a second speed, with a gear ratio of 2.3:1

So to repeat myself - just this once - the MA is dependant on the line diameter (as this changes the effective drum diameter) and the length of the winch handle both of which is not controlled by the manufacturer. I do note that you already know this.

Harken

Note how the manufacturer sells handles, including a standard length handle, on which the cited MA is based.

As for the line diameter, sure, that will effect the MA. But so what? The point is: the winch is capable of delivering the MA cited by the manufacturer! Whatever size line they use to calculate the listed MA is among the sizes of line which the winch can handle.

Anyway, consider this matter resolved. I'm off the idea for reasons of the parallel line chafing/twisting...despite the fact that the winch is perfectly capable of doing the job.

[MBWhite]

Originally Posted by KISS

Note how the manufacturer sells handles, including a standard length handle, on which the cited MA is based.

Well the beauty of an imaginary boat is you can make the imaginary windlass handle any length you want!

Say you are anchoring in an imaginary lagoon and you get a bunch of imaginary kelp, since you are resistant to imagining your 90 lb anchor down to 35 lbs, just imagine your windlass handle a foot or two longer and problem solved!

[Steve Bean]

Sorry I just got here, but I have read the entire thread. I'm surprised nobody has brought up Archimedes's Principle. This states that the buoyancy (upward force) exerted on an object in water (or any fluid) is equal to the weight of the fluid displaced. Applied to the anchoring situation, this means that raising the anchor and rode once the rode is vertical will be easier than raising the same anchor and rode in air. It means our anchors and chains are trying to float. It makes my back feel so much better!

[Coxswain]

Hahaha, yes. Just buy a manual windlass.
On a previous boat of mine, we anchored regularly in 35+ Meters of water in Indonesia, hauling that up even on a manual windlass was exhausting. I had a bottle of powerade sitting next to the winch for the breaks I would have to take...
Also consider if your anchor is dragging and you want to get it up in a hurry... your stuffed then without a windlass...

[Jim Cate]

Kiss, your inexperience shows in several ways. One is your talking about a "halyard winch" for retrieving anchors. I made an effort to explain why this was a bad idea related to loads on the winch mount and the mast. You now talk about the winch being on the bow... halyard winches, young man, are conventionally mounted on the mast. That's where the access to the halyards is most direct. Sometimes halyard winches are on the companionway coaming in the cockpit, and very occasionally on the deck aft of the mast. Never heard of a halyard winch on the bow!

Now you are suggesting that Boat Alexander's experience validates your ideas. You should note that his boat is a bit smaller than your proposed vessel, and that his gear is a lot lighter. What works for him may be marginal or totally unsuccessful for you.

And where are you getting the WLL limits for windlasses? I am not going to take the time to research other models, but my fairly small Maxwell VWC1500 will dead lift 1500 lbs, and has managed to survive one hell of a lot of snatch loads and hoistings of my 60 lb anchor and various lengths of 10 mm chain. That is what it is designed for.

And surely you don't believe that when the rode is vertical that the maximum load that is required is the weight of anchor and chain? Anchors, in execution of their duties, bury themselves into the seabed. It can take FAR more pull to break out an anchor than its weight.

Mate, I really hope that you get out and go cruising someday. It is a great life, and it is one that tends to bring all of us to our knees at times. A couple of those experiences will do you and your attitude a lot of good. Until then, you can just KISS... whatever.

Jim