Anchor Angels

[kas_1611]

What would be a good weight for an anchor angel based on a 12m (40ft) yacht using a 16kg Delta anchor on up to 50m of all chain rode? We'd rarely be anchoring in more than 12m of water.

I'd like to keep it manageable so wondering if 5kg would be enough or would it need to be as much as 8kg (i.e. half the anchor weight). Obviously more would be better up to a limit but space and physically manhandling the thing have to be taken into account, hence suggestion of 5kg.

Cheers

Keiron

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

What would be a good weight for an anchor angel based on a 12m (40ft) yacht using a 16kg Delta anchor on up to 50m of all chain rode? We'd rarely be anchoring in more than 12m of water.

I'd like to keep it manageable so wondering if 5kg would be enough or would it need to be as much as 8kg (i.e. half the anchor weight). Obviously more would be better up to a limit but space and physically manhandling the thing have to be taken into account, hence suggestion of 5kg.

Cheers

Keiron

Don't - buy a bigger anchor. Size matters! (as the fairer sex are wont to say).

Seriously - anchor angles rarely help when the wind really starts blowing (25+ knots. You're better off buying a 25kg anchor and an extra 50 meters of chain.

If you insist on an angel - go for as heavy a one as you can lift and handle.

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

What would be a good weight for an anchor angel based on a 12m (40ft) yacht using a 16kg Delta anchor on up to 50m of all chain rode? We'd rarely be anchoring in more than 12m of water.

Only kellet I've used was 13.6 kg. Cannot imagine that a 5 kg angel/kellet would have any measureable effect. That was an Anchor Buddy 30 (AB30) from a New Zealand manufacturer. Browse: Worldwide distributors for Anchor Buddy anchor weights / kellets

[Hudson Force]

Angels, kellets or sentinels...... many use these terms as the same. Some may posts some different uses of the terms. Actually the "angel" term is new to me. First, be advised that my opinion is biased by my choice of not using one,- not for bettering the angle of my rode for holding; not for keeping a canternary in my chain for shock absorbing; and not for keeping the rode away from a fin keel, wing or bulb. If you choose to use one, then the greater weight will be best. You would limit your weight by your ability to deal with it physically and your ability to store it. I don't find one worthwhile on board my boat.

[oceannavigator]

Ha ha ha. As an American, I was imagining sweet little glowing winged creatures watching my anchor while I sleep. Or.... maybe a group of girls in bikinis selling Rocnas.

That is a new term to me. I had only heard it called an anchor sentinel.

The angel, imo, does not work. If you have ever been anchored in real wind, the chain is straight like a bar and the angel would not in any way change that, even of it weighed as much as your anchor.

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Don't - buy a bigger anchor. Size matters! (as the fairer sex are wont to say).

Seriously - anchor angles rarely help when the wind really starts blowing (25+ knots. You're better off buying a 25kg anchor and an extra 50 meters of chain.

If you insist on an angel - go for as heavy a one as you can lift and handle.

You are completely right carstenb, I believe. The Bavaria 40 Cruiser displacement at the cruising mode is over 10 tons. At the just over 12 meters length one need for example Rocna of 20 kilograms as minimum. For Delta You need to add about 30 % od weight, so the Delta 25 kg is justa a bare minimum.
16 kilograms is in accordance to the Lewmar's sizing chart for Delta, but this sizng chart is just ridiculous.
Myself I would go for 25 kilograms Rocna (or similar anchor) with at least 72 metres of anchor chain (to have six boatlengths of chain is rather necessary for proper Med mooring in difficult conditions).
You can forget about angel/kellet/sentinel witch such a tackle, but if one really need it for some reason, its weight should be similar to the (properly sized) anchor weight at least to be of any significance.

[Stumble]

Get rig of the angel and take that weight and add it to the anchor. Weight in the chain or in this case the angel adds to holding power linearly, while anchor holding power goes up exponentially with weight (really fluke area and size).

[Horror Hotel]

I'm not a huge fan of the kellet but a huge drawback I find with the crowd that embraces them is they always seem way to small. Like seriously not doing anything. I get the concept and given my awesome ground tackle (proudly confident) I would never choose to use one, nor would it help. But if you want to and must, it should be heavy. It's common to not want the kellet to weigh more than the anchor, so Kelleys stay small. A 40# kellet, hanging on 3/8 chain hooked to a 60# anchor would seem good. Just keep in mind in 30 kts of wind the ride stretches out and it's like the kellet doesn't exist. Up sizing the anchor really makes more sense.

Right now a liveaboard is anchored next to me and has a small mushroom anchor hanging on his straight out rope rode as a kellet. It's only 20kts, and the kellet is obviously doing nothing. He was on the bow adjusting it for some time and I didn't have the heart (balls) to explain that it wouldn't help him from dragging later.

[kas_1611]

Given the vast consensus is against "angels" I'm going to scratch this one off my list of potentials and save the space and weight for something else. Given it wouldn't be being used all the time, except in the more crowded anchorage to reduce swing space, it doesn't seem worth the effort.

However I am somewhat confused, and disturbed, that people think Lewmar are indicating that the Delta doesn't need to be as big as everyone else is saying. Why on earth would they do this, it is not in their interest to have people using too small an anchor. Especially not with the North American litigation culture. Having done some quick research I have come across 2 anchor selection tables for Deltas and both indicate that 16kg is fine for a 12m boat. In fact Lewmar's own table, to give them credit, does indicate that at 12m it might be worth considering the 20kg. This kind of confirms the "general rule of thumb" that you have 1lb for each foot of length. As 16kg is 35.5lb and the 20kg is 44lb and the Delta is a High Holding Power rated anchor one could go with either depending on conditions, type of anchoring, location etc. Rocna's own table suggests a 20kg anchor for the same size boat again kind of confirming the basic rule of thumb.

From my own experience our 16kg Delta, properly set and checked by swimming over, in sand and mud, will hold us safely in winds of 25 to 30kts quite happily with 4x water depth out. It has held us in more but I admit to sitting in the cockpit watching the anchor alarm, GPS track and 3 trees to ensure we didn't drag. In fact the only time we have dragged was a sudden 45kt katabatic gale when we were unfortunately anchored in weed, which isn't exactly unexpected.

Don't get me wrong here, I have been thinking about upgrading the anchor as well but there is a limit to how much bigger one can go. If 20kg is better then 25kg must be even better so why not get a 30kg or a 40? Not much good if your windlass can't pull it back up or starts slipping as it can't hold the weight or if your engine can't pull enough in reverse to set the thing in the first place.

It has been good to hear all the thoughts and comments which is what a good discussion is all about and I really value everyone's input and thank you all.

Keiron

[Stumble]

Kas,

It isn't that we think their recommendations are wrong, just not sutable. Many anchor sizing charts are based on expected wind speeds of 35kn, while most cruisers want an anchor that can handle substantially higher wind speeds. But anchor manufacturers don't want to make recommendations for really high wind speeds because it implicates them if a properly sized anchor drags in a hurricane.

[kas_1611]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Kas,

It isn't that we think their recommendations are wrong, just not sutable. Many anchor sizing charts are based on expected wind speeds of 35kn, while most cruisers want an anchor that can handle substantially higher wind speeds. But anchor manufacturers don't want to make recommendations for really high wind speeds because it implicates them if a properly sized anchor drags in a hurricane.

Stumble, so for those of us who are coastal cruisers who don't live in the hurricane belt(s) the charts are fundamentally suitable for 99% of the time. Agree with you that if you are anchoring between June 1st and Dec 31st in the Gulf Coast or Caribbean you might indeed need a bigger anchor but that is no reason for anyone to claim the chart is "just ridiculous".

Personally if I know the expected winds are going to be in excess of 30kts then I head for either an extremely sheltered anchorage, drop all my chain if I can and tie up stern to with both stern lines or better still stay in harbour or marina with as many mooring lines as I can fasten.

Cheers

Keiron

[Andrew Troup]

kas

I've sailed and anchored a fair bit in a windy corner or two of the world on a 40' yacht , probably only 7.5 tonnes, but with a tall rig with a 20kg Delta (and the same as a spare, plus a big Fortress)

We never needed to break out the spares. We did drag once but that was not the anchor's fault.

Never had to hang on in horrendous conditions, but held fine at 50 knots in an anchorage fully exposed to wind (but only short fetch for sea), in indifferent holding.

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

Given the vast consensus is against "angels" I'm going to scratch this one off my list of potentials and save the space and weight for something else. Given it wouldn't be being used all the time, except in the more crowded anchorage to reduce swing space, it doesn't seem worth the effort.

Keiron

I'm not sure a consensus about anchor angels/kellets has emerged. Plenty of opinion from people who've never used one (but might have strong theoretical backgrounds).

I own and use a kellet, a 13.6 kg (30 lb) Anchor Buddy, on my 8.5 m sailing boat.

I do not think kellet does much if anything to increase ultimate holding capacity of a well set drag embedment anchor. I think an anchor should be sized to boat, likely sea substrates, and likely wind loads.

I know a kellet does reduce yawing. I use a kellet in crowded anchorages and in particular anchorages (e.g. an anchorage in which my boat circles its anchor with tides instead of swinging in 180 degree arc).

Especially in crowded anchorages, I prefer a kellet on a 5:1 scope than practice of power setting anchor at 5:1 scope and then shortening to 3:1 scope.

Al

[Andrew Troup]

Originally Posted by Alan Mighty

Keiron

I'm not sure a consensus about anchor angels/kellets has emerged. Plenty of opinion from people who've never used one (but might have strong theoretical backgrounds).

...

Good post all round, I thought. The only place I know of that kellets don't serve any useful purpose whatsoever is on the internet.

My only caveat about them in "that other place" (the fringes of oceans) would be to caution against their use in shallow water: they don't serve a useful purpose -- unless several of them are alternated with floats along the rode to force a 'zig zag' displacement when the rode slackens, for a chafe-free alternative to snubbers, particularly useful in a shallow hurricane hole if conditions are likely to be too dangerous to stay onboard).

But more importantly, I understand from a trusted source that a single kellet at the wrong position on the anchor rode in shallow water, if it becomes 'excited' by waves at a critical frequency from the harmonic series (terms relating to resonant waveforms), can amplify the vertical movements of the rode to the extent (in an extreme case my source witnessed) of being flung up out of the water .

- - - -
The notion that weight along the rode (whether in the form of heavy chain, or added) serves no useful role, in conditions where peak loads can pull the chain relatively straight, is one of the most pervasive (and frankly embarrassing) misapprehensions in the whole of internet sailing discussion ... a place where there is no shortage of candidates for the same description.

On a bad day, it can seem that there is more expertise online about what won't work than about what will. It's a pity, because it crowds out or camouflages authentic information about things which seems as though they would work, but (often under specified circumstances) don't.

[Horror Hotel]

The "general rule" of 1lb of anchor weight per foot of boat is very conservative. I would bet many cruisers including myself have more like almost 2lbs per foot of boat. I have a 32' with a 66# anchor and it's something I never worry about. Windlasses are what probably divide the camps. If you pull it by hand a 35# would be acceptable, if it's being powered up really no reason not to move up to a 55#. Using all chain rode nearly eliminates the advantages of the kellet. Laying out 75' of chain weighs more than any kellet would.