anchor-outs have significantly harmed the ecosystem

[skipper53]

When reading articles about 3nvironmental damage and even climate change, I wonder what the conservation it would have done to protect the dinosaurs, and other great predators of that period. Could we have survived with those beasts or is it better that they're extinct. Is it man's purpose on Earth to keep it from changing and evolving? Or, are we intended to adapt to the changes?

[Montanan]

Who all recalls Forbes Island back in the day it was moored out in Richardson Bay, before it was brought to be docked at the Embarcadero between Piers 39 and 41 and became a floating restaurant and tourist attraction?

Link to an image when it was in Richardson:

https://www.google.com/search?biw=12...pZFFQI1OCjknM:

[Ark Angel]

Originally Posted by comesatime

New study by Audubon California:

https://www.sfgate.com/news/bayarea/...y-13857108.php

The city of Sanfrancisco,s filth has harmed more to our eco system! Clean it up...

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Who all recalls Forbes Island back in the day it was moored out in Richardson Bay, before it was brought to be docked at the Embarcadero between Piers 39 and 41 and became a floating restaurant and tourist attraction?

Link to an image when it was in Richardson:

https://www.google.com/search?biw=12...pZFFQI1OCjknM:

That pic brought back memories of when Jim and i first were sailing together on SF Bay, he took the boat over there, and we saw the "island", years before its relocation....

A good time.

Ann

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, pau-hana, & Ark Angel.

You’re both indulging in a “Relative Privation” fallacy, wherein nothing matters, if it's not literally the worst thing happening.

[Two Skippies]

I agree that anchoring can and does do damage to the sea floor in a lot of cases, however I am suspicious of the photo of Lake Macquarie.
All these boats are on swing moorings, and are not anchored to the sea floor as such. These swing moorings do not have chains dragging the bottom, and I fail to see how the exaggerated "damage" was caused by moored boats.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Two Skippies

I agree that anchoring can and does do damage to the sea floor in a lot of cases, however I am suspicious of the photo of Lake Macquarie.
All these boats are on swing moorings, and are not anchored to the sea floor as such. These swing moorings do not have chains dragging the bottom, and I fail to see how the exaggerated "damage" was caused by moored boats.

The damage to the seagrass meadow was due to the use of standard chain and block swing moorings, in 2016 the state government implemented a rebate incentive program to subsidize the mooring owners / "boaties" to change over to environmentally friendly mooring systems which have rode that is buoyant so as to not come into contact with the ground while the moored boat swings about the anchor point, whereas traditional chain rode systems drag extensively on the ground around pivot anchor point.

I love the Australian colloquial language: Boaties. So charming.

Reference snipet from a local news article, January 21, 2016:

"A push is on to install environmentally friendly boat moorings in Lake Macquarie, but concerns have been raised about the cost.

The state government, through Hunter Local Land Services, is offering a 50 per cent rebate to support boaties in Lake Macquarie “to upgrade their conventional block and chain moorings”.

The Boat Owners Association of NSW Hunter Region committee raised concerns about the cost for boaties, despite the offer of a rebate.

“In principle, it’s a worthy initiative because it has potential to reduce the impact on seagrasses and reef areas,” committee chairman Frank Downing said.

“There’s a significant cost penalty in terms of installation and maintenance.”

Mr Downing said the new moorings would “have to be maintained annually”, with a diver needed.

“If it’s a commercial operation, you start running into occupational, health and safety issues and dive regulations,” he said.

Boaties can apply for a 50 per cent rebate for a full replacement or partial upgrade of a mooring.

“Seagrass plays a big role in maintaining water quality,” Hunter Local Land Services Officer Brian Hughes said recently.

“It provides food and habitat for a range of fish and crustaceans that support recreational fishing activities in the lake.

“It is also an important habitat for iconic species such as seahorses and threatened sea turtles.”

An estimated 114,875 square metres of seagrass had been lost in Lake Macquarie due to conventional moorings, including more than 76,000 square metres of the endangered Posidonia australis, the government said.

Former Lake Macquarie catchment co-ordinator Jeff Jansson said the mooring program amounted to the “fine tuning” of a larger multipart plan.

Mr Jansson said reducing sediments and nutrients that flow into the lake was the main way to improve it. This was done on a larger scale under the Lake Macquarie Improvement Project in which $27 million was spent from 1999 to 2009 to improve the lake."

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by GordMay

...You’re both indulging in a “Relative Privation” fallacy, wherein nothing matters, if it's not literally the worst thing happening.

I don't know how to water this down, but your inability to appropriately recognize satire caused you to charge others with cognitive dysfunction.

At the same time, there's a lot of "expert" environmentalism indulgent activities here.

An expert is somebody who is more than 50 miles from home, has no responsibility for implementing the advice he gives, and shows slides. Edwin Meese

It has been established here that the damage caused by anchoring out is not significant and it is reversible (insofar as one maintains some sense of omnipotence over evolution or something). It's also been established that closing the referenced anchorage would in the short-run create manifest human problems that are practically impossible to ameliorate, while in the long-run effectively permanently close an anchorage to the vast majority of cruisers. All this lending to policy inertia to close anchorages about the country. All these policies exacerbating human-level problems that invariably themselves are associated with costs that in the long-term will reduce the capacity of the government to care for things like the environment in the first place.

All this in a forum for people who want to promote the cause of cruisers now into the future. Certainly environmentalism forums must exist for people with existential angst without real-world means to work things out.

[Trailer Sailor]

As long as we keep getting more people and fewer resources for them to enjoy, problems like this will continue to rise.

[seandepagnier]

They should also conduct a study of the environmental impact where the wood is grown of using brazilian walnut in the waterfront around sausalito.

[fivecapes]

Originally Posted by Singularity

I don't know how to water this down, but your inability to appropriately recognize satire caused you to charge others with cognitive dysfunction.

Poe's Law applies here

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Singularity

...[1] but your [Gord's] inability to appropriately recognize satire caused you to charge others with cognitive dysfunction.
[2]At the same time, there's a lot of "expert" environmentalism indulgent activities here.
An expert is somebody who is more than 50 miles from home, has no responsibility for implementing the advice he gives, and shows slides. Edwin Meese
[3]It has been established argued here that ...

[1] In post #195, the author references municipal sewage spills to (implied) seagrass degradation (or boater sewage discharge); with which the author of post #195 agreed.
These "not as bad as" arguments represent a Logical Fallacy of Relative Privation.
BTW: If the argument is about ranking things from bad to worse, then it's fine.
I don’t believe that presenting a logical fallacy (dismissing an argument or complaint due to the existence of more important problems in the world) represents a cognitive dysfunction, which is the loss of intellectual functions such as thinking, remembering, and reasoning of sufficient severity to interfere with daily functioning. Patients with cognitive dysfunction have trouble with verbal recall, basic arithmetic, and concentration.

[2] I don’t know what you mean.

[3] Fixed that for you.

FWIW:
“An expert is someone who has succeeded in making decisions and judgements simpler through knowing what to pay attention to and what to ignore. “
“Most of the mistakes in thinking are inadequacies of perception rather than mistakes of logic.”
“If you never change your mind, why have one?”
“Humor is by far the most significant activity of the human brain.”
~ All by Edward de Bono The de Bono Group - Edward Debono

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Tacmed

As a live aboard cruiser, with no car and a negative carbon foot print, can i cash in my carbon offset credits to use the anchor?

Seagrass meadows are active carbon sinks. So if you don't disturb them and perhaps plant them, ya might earn carbon credits as to contributing to deriving a negative carbon foot print, errhhh, hull print . Don't forget to account for all the marine growth on the bottom of your hull, a floating meadow perhaps. Reference picture of a well established sea garden. Which is likely what the bottom of many of the permanently anchored / statically stored and mainly unoccupied boats in Richardson Bay are like. There being comparatively few "cruisers" anchored out in Richardson Bay.

Just be sure to use high carbon steel for your anchor and rode and not just iron if you wish to maximize attaining a carbon credit for that carbon alloyed sinker.

Typical compositions of carbon steel are:

Mild (low carbon) steel: approximately 0.05% to 0.25% carbon content with up to 0.4% manganese content[1] (e.g. AISI 1018 steel). Less strong but cheap and easy to shape; surface hardness can be increased through carburizing.
Medium carbon steel: approximately 0.29% to 0.54% carbon content with 0.60 to 1.65% manganese content(e.g. AISI 1040 steel). Balances ductility and strength and has good wear resistance; used for large parts, forging and car parts.
High carbon steel: approximately 0.55% to 0.95% carbon content with 0.30 to 0.90% manganese content. Very strong, used for springs and high-strength wires.

Not sure how not having a car factors into the carbon equation, CO2 emissions per mile being a factor, perhaps using an EV is the favored alternative, with solar power source. CO2 per mile of travel for a engine powered boat is typically much more substantial than a car but CO2 emissions for a sailing vessel would be the lowest. They have mounted large rotary sails on large cargo ships and they have reduced fuel consumption by 10 to 15%, expect to see more of those as the Commercial Marine industry moves towards reducing their CO2 emissions by 50% by 2050. The cargo ships will transit even slower than their already slowed velocity across the seas.

As to the cruising lifestyle, I suppose to the extent the vessels are sailed and not motored when they transit and if they are solar or wind powered then it seems plausible that the lifestyle could be carbon-lite. But if one is motor cruising and running a genny to keep the AC and refrigerator / freezer and water makers and water heater running then the lifestyle may be comparatively quite carbon heavy.

FYI. Reference article in case one wishes to count grams of C.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4793266/

Abstract:
Boating activities are one of the causes that threaten seagrass meadows and the ecosystem services they provide. Mechanical destruction of seagrass habitats may also trigger the erosion of sedimentary organic carbon (Corg) stocks, which may contribute to increasing atmospheric CO2. This study presents the first estimates of loss of Corg stocks in seagrass meadows due to mooring activities in Rottnest Island, Western Australia. Sediment cores were sampled from seagrass meadows and from bare but previously vegetated sediments underneath moorings. The Corg stores have been compromised by the mooring deployment from 1930s onwards, which involved both the erosion of existing sedimentary Corg stores and the lack of further accumulation of Corg. On average, undisturbed meadows had accumulated ~6.4 Kg Corg m−2 in the upper 50 cm-thick deposits at a rate of 34 g Corg m−2 yr−1. The comparison of Corg stores between meadows and mooring scars allows us to estimate a loss of 4.8 kg Corg m−2 in the 50 cm-thick deposits accumulated over ca. 200 yr as a result of mooring deployments. These results provide key data for the implementation of Corg storage credit offset policies to avoid the conversion of seagrass ecosystems and contribute to their preservation.

So how green are your boat's bottoms?



Fair sailing.

[senormechanico]

Just another "We Need to Do Something to Make Us Feel Good" thread,
gone bad...


If you want to see more "environmental" stuff more important than eelgrass, here's another bit where Seattle is following San Francisco.


Enjoy, if you can... it's a whole hour long of reality with no commercials.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpAi70WWBlw

Oh, and for the mods who might want to dump this post because it may not have anything to do with sailing,
where do you think the poop from the sidewalks goes when they pressure wash the street?
That's right, into a No Discharge Zone.

[RaymondR]

However to provide a little context for the study on sea grass beds at Rotnest Island, the following small extract from Wikipedia on the State of Western Australia:

"The total length of the state's eastern border is 1,862 km (1,157 mi). There are 20,781 km (12,913 mi) of coastline, including 7,892 km (4,904 mi) of island coastline"

The population of this extensive area of land and it's long, uninhabited coastline is 2.72 million people. The population of San Francisco bay area 7.15 people.

The bays at Rotnest Island and the southern end of the sound the island forms the northern extremity of are the only places on the 12,913 miles of coastline where any concentration of moorings exists.

I can state, with very little fear of accusations of exaggerating the situation, that there are only four blades of terrestrial grass growing along the 1,157 miles of the eastern border of Western Australia and if challenged on this might concede a total of six.

From an environmental impact viewpoint there is no valid comparison between these places.