Anchor Poll

[vari]

Hi Jonjo,

I'm now asking myself "why"?

Maybe because I can....I know a little of material properties, use scrap material from work, neighbours are galvanisers, competent in welding and most of all I find it interesting.

Your correct the sand is quite hard here (there are afew areas of the soft stuff on




the foreshore which is found on a regular basis) and we are at the end of the wirral on the estuary.

Regards
Vari

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by vari

Maybe because I can....I know a little of material properties, use scrap material from work, neighbours are galvanisers, competent in welding and most of all I find it interesting.


Vari

Then stick at it! Many anchors, and I'm guessing the Bugel is no exception, were developed and then put into production. Subsequently no work was done to improve what was/is a good concept. Lot's have copied, I'm not sure any have improved (but we do not see it in Oz). So today's Bugel is, I think, the same as it was 30 years ago. Now we have, easier, cheaper, access to better steels, easier fabrication techniques - many designs would enjoy some updating. Virtually none of us have access to a neighbourly galvaniser and not many of us are sufficiently adept at welding - if we can help, we'll at least try!

Arguably the Bugel could be improved by use of thin, high tensile steel, its fluke and shank are very thick - but the design was based on 316 stainless and thickness gave it weight (tho' this might not be necessary) and strength but also resisted performance (very difficult to embed a thick plate).

The weather in your images looks very average!

Jonathan

PS - I might have added the Knox Anchor to my list of British designs (CQR, Bruce, Delta). It would be nice to add the Vari! (Though we might need to agree about extending the Poll!)

[wolfenzee]

There are alot of light wieght anchors that have been recently develpoed. Granted they are a bit less than the anchors they are designed/marketed to replace, if (hypothetically) there is a 30% savings in weight, when you add the chain necessary to make any anchor work right, the weight savings in % is alot less, then the actual weight difference in the water is not as much because things are lighter in the water. Lastly, the people that can afford these new anchors can afford a power winch.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by wolfenzee

There are alot of light wieght anchors that have been recently develpoed. Granted they are a bit less than the anchors they are designed/marketed to replace, if (hypothetically) there is a 30% savings in weight, when you add the chain necessary to make any anchor work right, the weight savings in % is alot less, then the actual weight difference in the water is not as much because things are lighter in the water. Lastly, the people that can afford these new anchors can afford a power winch.

Thanks, Wolfenzee,

I was just trying to clarify if by light weight you meant alloy or non ballasted galvanised. From your comment I assume you meant non ballasted gal - like the Supreme and SARCA which are lighter (I have never checked if its 30% but sounds OK) than their ballasted gal equivalents of the same surface area. Alloys would be less than half the weight - though as you say - by the time you add on chain, makes little difference (to weight). Reading the posts the Boss seems the ultimate gal of low weight and massive surface area, so maybe the ultimate light weight gal.

But many people use mixed rodes (where seabed has little appetite for nylon), chain and spliced on nylon - to them, they have a fixed length of chain, then anchor weight becomes a more important part of the whole. Having a light weight anchor that also performs becomes a saving.

Thanks

Jonathan

[wolfenzee]

When I said lightweight "new gen" I meant anchors like the Ronca/Mantus etc. Compared to older style anchors like CQR, Bruce, Forjord....tried and true anchors. The chain used in combination with rode is not to prevent chafe on the bottom, but rather give weight to hold the angle of pull down. (I have seen alot of boats on the beach that had rode tied directly to the anchor). When you figure in 20 or 30' of chain the weight difference between the two types of anchors is not that significant.
A lighter weight anchor style that gives you more holding power/lb of anchor means means that you either have a much lighter anchor under water (consider how much something weighs in the water) which is less likely to penetrate kelp or an anchor of the same weight that takes up more deck space. Anchors are not an "either/or" type thing. There are different anchors for different applications. there is no one "do all" anchor.I have heard some good reports about the Ronca.....but the person that told me that wouldn't give up her Bruce.
Most of the anchors out there are pretty decent anchors, just different. The biggest weakness is in the application...proper anchoring technique. This is an incredibly tricky subject. Not only can the same results be achieved through different techniques, you have to figure in bottom conditions, anchor types, weather conditions, and boat type. This is why anchor comparison ends up generating a heated debate (people feel their decision is right and everything else is wrong), anchor choice is a very personal thing.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by wolfenzee

When I said lightweight "new gen" I meant anchors like the Ronca/Mantus etc. Compared to older style anchors like CQR, Bruce, Forjord....tried and true anchors. The chain used in combination with rode is not to prevent chafe on the bottom, but rather give weight to hold the angle of pull down. (I have seen alot of boats on the beach that had rode tied directly to the anchor). When you figure in 20 or 30' of chain the weight difference between the two types of anchors is not that significant.
A lighter weight anchor style that gives you more holding power/lb of anchor means means that you either have a much lighter anchor under water (consider how much something weighs in the water) which is less likely to penetrate kelp or an anchor of the same weight that takes up more deck space. Anchors are not an "either/or" type thing. There are different anchors for different applications. there is no one "do all" anchor.I have heard some good reports about the Ronca.....but the person that told me that wouldn't give up her Bruce.
Most of the anchors out there are pretty decent anchors, just different. The biggest weakness is in the application...proper anchoring technique. This is an incredibly tricky subject. Not only can the same results be achieved through different techniques, you have to figure in bottom conditions, anchor types, weather conditions, and boat type. This is why anchor comparison ends up generating a heated debate (people feel their decision is right and everything else is wrong), anchor choice is a very personal thing.

I am even more confused by your post re lightweight anchors.

Most who move from CQR/Bruce to new gen rarely go lighter. Anyone tying rode to anchor can expect to be on the beach and one would not expect them to have any knowledge of anchoring technique.

[Mantus Anchors]

Roll the plate Manson Supreme Style, Move the shank forward, you will get better penetrating power and better holding... Check out our website for close ups...
Look at the videos, see how they compare to your experiences... and good luck
I was there a few years ago
Greg

[JonJo]

Greg,

And remove the roll bar and it would be a Bruce or maybe a Boss

Forward to the past, quickly?

[vari]

Out with the burning gear this afternoon and give my proto a short back and sides..

Cheers Vari

[wolfenzee]

Originally Posted by downunder

I am even more confused by your post re lightweight anchors.

Most who move from CQR/Bruce to new gen rarely go lighter. Anyone tying rode to anchor can expect to be on the beach and one would not expect them to have any knowledge of anchoring technique.

If I kept the same weight anchor but went to a new gen anchor.....it would take up more deck space (which is at a premium on a small boat). If I need a heavier anchor to achieve the same thing that sort of runs counter to the advertising. As I already have anchors I am happy with, it would be a very expensive way of taking up extra space, because I would keep the ones I've got.
As far as knowledge of anchor technique (or anything else) there are three ways of learning....pay attention to what the people who know what they are talking about, learn from your mistakes and learn from others mistakes.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by wolfenzee

If I kept the same weight anchor but went to a new gen anchor.....it would take up more deck space (which is at a premium on a small boat). If I need a heavier anchor to achieve the same thing that sort of runs counter to the advertising. As I already have anchors I am happy with, it would be a very expensive way of taking up extra space, because I would keep the ones I've got

New gen anchors are demonstrably better than older designs; generalising - they set more quickly (actually they set immediately); they have a higher holding capacity for their weight (actually this turns out to be around a 2 times holding capacity) and if dragged they will usually re-set - immediately, they usually work better in a greater range of seabeds. Its a win win. Classification Societies allow use of Type Approved or individually Certificated new gen anchors, Supreme and Excel, on vessels in survey of a weight 30% less than the older designs. Fortress are also Type Approved but as they are alloy they are treated differently, Fortress seem to be about half the weight of old gen anchors, this seems overkill as they, even then, tend to be huge (but I'm not suggesting going less than about 50%. for reasons other than holding capacity).

Why this fad for replacing an old gen anchor with a bigger new gen anchors is totally without logic (but good for anchor companies - they make more money, so do not expect them to discourage the practice).

There is a school of thought that larger new gen anchors might be less effective and in the extreme - dangerous. But Noelex swears by big is better so there are completely opposing views.

But why anyone would buy an old gen anchor today looks very strange. Keeping old gen anchors has merit, you should have more than one and a wardrobe of different designs is good - though the ideal would be different new gen designs (but on a budget - not necessarily the priority). Old gen anchors are very useful if you need to tether your dog to a very wide sandy beach

But tying off nylon direct to an anchor, looks to be a recipe, at the least, for losing your anchor (unless its being used to secure the dog). Anchors work best with the rode on the seabed, chain has been found to achieve this, its also wear resistant. In some parts of the world nylon would simply not last the night.

Jonathan

[Mantus Anchors]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Greg,

And remove the roll bar and it would be a Bruce or maybe a Boss

Forward to the past, quickly?

Well its all fun and games and boys like in the past want to play in the sand
Greg

[Mantus Anchors]

We came up with a really cool improvement, cant wait to share it with you guys....
Stay tuned in March we will roll it out.

[Lagoon4us]

But why anyone would buy an old gen anchor today looks very strange. Keeping old gen anchors has merit, you should have more than one and a wardrobe of different designs is good - though the ideal would be different new gen designs (but on a budget - not necessarily the priority). Old gen anchors are very useful if you need to tether your dog to a very wide sandy beach

How many anchor manufacturers actually offer different styles but same product quality to cater for different strata?

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by Mantus Anchors

Well its all fun and games and boys like in the past want to play in the sand
Greg

if the hat fits

Jonathan