Anchor Swivel Really Needed?

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Wouldn’t it be easier and more cost effective to simply buy an Ultra swivel than to go your recommended route of modifying the front end of his boat and/or bow roller to accommodate your $100 device which apparently doesn’t fit?

That's almost what I've already done. I have an oversize Kong swivel there now, mounted correctly (almost wasn't room for that)...

But I still follow threads about swivels because the Kong doesn't actually flip the anchor -- it only lets me more easily rotate the anchor to the correct orientation before the last heave. And I have to do that about 20% of the time, I think...

The Ultra is pretty expensive... given that I've got a sort-of workable solution in place already...

And I'm not actually sure a flipper would work without wrecking the whole pulpit anyway. I have to manually lift the anchor over the roller as it is, because using the windlass brings the flukes up too violently, and there's no room for that without bashing the underside of the pulpit. IOW, when I rotate the anchor manually before that last lift it's already oriented correctly when I bring it aboard... and I'm not sure there's room to still be flipping during that last lift.

(I think our pulpit was factory-sized by a guy who never anchored and assumed a 35-lb Delta would be just peachy keen. Our current anchor is much bigger than that.)

I should also mention, it's really a relatively low-priority issue anyway; we don't anchor out as often as some here do, lots of other boat systems to work on, lots of other actual boating to do. Would be nice to have a more elegant retrieval, but what we're doing works.

Originally Posted by groundtackle

Ranger, do you think you may have room for a flip link without the chain stopper? There are other ways to grab the chain that in my opinion can work better and potential eliminate a certain bad outcome that’s inherent with chain stoppers.

I'd have to measure that, Chris, but I don't think so...


-Chris

[sailorboy1]

While I find this thread sometimes amusing because some treat their position on anchor stuff as a religion, I think something gets lost.

It doesn't really matter if something is strength "X" or "Y" or even if it results in a "weak point". It only matters whether or not the strength is "enough". I'm sure most swivels can be broken under use and feel that's a good thing, as long as the breaking strength meets the "enough" level. Who really cares if a swivel can be broke if you apply full throttle on it backwards? That's not a normal anchor holding problem, that's a "my anchor is jammed under a rock" event.

If you apply enough force to your anchoring system, something is going to break! That's the way it is and as expected. The question is whether the strength of the system is "enough" and what you are basing that on. Me, I'm not basing it on something like a backwards or 90+ degree pull with enough force to rip my cleats off or something.

Be real people.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by groundtackle

I’m sorry if my findings contradict other opinions. I guess I’m on my own with this one.
When I submit my proofs, then what? I’m already confident in my stance. What do I get?
Chris

You get to look like a credible marine products vendor who isn't out bashing the products of all your competitors for personal financial gain.

[groundtackle]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

No one wants proof. What one wants is FACTS. Opinions are like anuses -- everyone has one.


For what it's worth -- I am sympathetic to what you've said -- it sounds right to me. But I and everyone else would like to know what it's based on, so we can make up our own minds. You deal with these things professionally, so you must have access to a lot of facts -- we are interested in these. Even if they are just data points, which don't constitute proof.


What concerns the Ultra swivel which you've criticized - what you say corresponds to what SEEMS to me is right -- that it can't possibly be as strong in a side pull as the manufacturer's propaganda claims. Just speaking logically -- the thin neck of that thing is not thicker than the chain, yet it's subject to magnified forces by leverage, and there does not exist that alloy of stainless steel, which is many times stronger than G40 (not to speak of G70) chain, so it can't possibly be strong enough to resist that situation. Moreover, there is no point to such a construction in the first place. However -- that's just speculation on my part. You have implied that you've seen these broken, and that perhaps you even have broken ones "under your workbench". We are much more interested in these factual data points, than in your opinion, even if we agree with you. Even hearsay ("my cousin Bob broke one in Tasmania last year") is interesting -- we're not in court; no one is "proving" anything.



What do you "get out of it"? Well, what do you hope to get out of this discussion at all? A gold star? You get what the rest of us do -- you learn something new, you test your opinions against challenges (and joyously change the ones which are thus found wanting), you have satisfaction from sharing knowledge with others.

Dockhead, I woke to see this and thanks very much for it.
I honestly just want everyone to have fun and be safe out there. That’s very satisfying. We are on our way to Vancouver boat show and freezing out here. I’ll get the pics out when I get home Feb 12 -13 th.
Chris

[groundtackle]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You get to look like a credible marine products vendor who isn't out bashing the products of all your competitors for personal financial gain.

Kenomac, just want to clarify a few items.
1) Ground Tackle Marine doesn’t sell swivels. I cannot find one that will satisfy my stringent requirements, if you find one please let me know. I do however recommend when required rated galvanized industrial swivels and components from manufacturers like Crosby. They provide with full disclosure all the documentation I desire at any time. This goes into the vessels files if ever an issue may arise.
2) there is no personal financial gain within the marine industry that I’m aware of.
Chris

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

What concerns the Ultra swivel which you've criticized - what you say corresponds to what SEEMS to me is right -- that it can't possibly be as strong in a side pull as the manufacturer's propaganda claims. Just speaking logically -- the thin neck of that thing is not thicker than the chain, yet it's subject to magnified forces by leverage, and there does not exist that alloy of stainless steel, which is many times stronger than G40 (not to speak of G70) chain, so it can't possibly be strong enough to resist that situation.

This photo shows the neck better.

Some of the promotional images create the impression that the neck is thicker than it is in reality.

The Flip swivel is a clever innovation, I also like the streamlined design, but I have to agree with Dockhead that I find it hard to imagine it is as strong as the chain, particularly with side loading beyond the articulation angle.

The other concern is the indentations around the neck in this well used example. I am not sure if this is wear, or part of the construction (a weld?) or a combination of these factors, but the possibility of a stress riser in the thinnest, weakest portion of the shackle does not fill me with confidence.

It is not unusual to see terrible, no name, half bent swivels attaching anchors and while breakages occur, they are not enormously common. So perhaps any concern is over-cautious, but if the shackle breaks not only do you often lose the anchor, but the resulting drag will be very rapid.

It can be difficult to recover from such a problem in time to prevent damage. So the chain to anchor attachment needs to be foolproof and ideally well overengineered to deal with side loading.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

This photo shows the neck better.

Some of the promotional images create the impression that the neck is thicker than it is in reality.

The Flip swivel is a clever innovation, I also like the streamlined design, but I have to agree with Dockhead that I find it hard to imagine it is as strong as the chain, particularly with side loading beyond the articulation angle.

The other concern is the indentations around the neck in this well used example. I am not sure if this is wear, or part of the construction (a weld?) or a combination of these factors, but the possibility of a stress riser in the thinnest, weakest portion of the shackle does not fill me with confidence.

It is not unusual to see terrible, no name, half bent swivels attaching anchors and while breakages occur, they are not enormously common. So perhaps any concern is over-cautious, but if the shackle breaks not only do you often lose the anchor, but the resulting drag will be very rapid.

It can be difficult to recover from such a problem in time to prevent damage. So the chain to anchor attachment needs to be foolproof and ideally well overengineered to deal with side loading.

Your picture shows a very "well-used" example of a product which hasn't failed. So the Ultra swivel looks to me like a well-constructed, thoughtfully engineered swivel that can handle many years of use and abuse.

[noelex 77]

I am also not a great fan of the Flip link.

The first difficulty is that, in my view, with all the shackles and protuberances there is a much greater risk of the chain getting caught up on the anchor.

If this occurs, the unfair pull can unseat even a well set anchor. The problem of the anchor connection binding and locking on the anchor can happen even with a simple shackle, but multiple shackles and the extra hardware of the Flip link itself significantly increases the risk.

Whatever hardware you use to connect the anchor, try pulling the chain from different directions to check nothing can bind or catch.

The second concern is the added bulk of the Flip link reducing the anchor’s ability to dive. If this occurs, it will significantly reduce the ultimate holding. If the Flip link stays vertical this is not a great concern, although with the extra shackles the combination is still quite bulky. The greater concern is if the flip link rotates to horizontal. This would be very hard to bury and may significantly reduce the anchor’s holding ability in many substrates. Despite these drawbacks there is no reduction in the twist of the chain as provided by a swivel.

If you look at the Anchor Right website you can see a photo of the Flip Link sitting horizontally.

One anchor manufacturer even provided a metre of stainless wire with the anchor. They felt that the reduced drag of the wire compared to the more conventional chain, helped the anchor performance. I would not suggest going to these lengths, but consider the bulk of the anchor chain connection and try to reduce this as much as possible.

[boom23]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

If you apply enough force to your anchoring system, something is going to break! That's the way it is and as expected. The question is whether the strength of the system is "enough" and what you are basing that on. Me, I'm not basing it on something like a backwards or 90+ degree pull with enough force to rip my cleats off or something.

Be real people.

That was exactly my point when I put down numbers in my previous posts. Something is always the weak link and, in my case, it's not the swivel.

I just wish people, or companies, who put down competitors' products produce some actual data so that we can make better decisions.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

. . . So the chain to anchor attachment needs to be foolproof and ideally well overengineered to deal with side loading.

Don't forget that the swivel is not even the only "link" in the "chain" here -- we also have the shank of the anchor. Many anchors have shanks which for cost reasons are simple laser cuts out of flat steel plate, which are not particularly strong. I bent the shank of a 121 pound Rocna anchor by side loading it with a Kong swivel mounted directly to the shank -- a data point, a fact, for what it's worth. So even if the swivel is strong enough to take the side load, will the shank be strong enough?



A lot of professionals say just don't do this -- and I haven't heard anything, which would make me comfortable with mounting any swivel or anchor connector directly to an anchor shank, other than the Mantus which basically has a shackle between the swivel and the shank (but the Mantus may create other problems -- too much weight and volume in the wrong place).



If you want a device to flip your anchor the right way around, a better choice might be something like the Osculati Twist:


https://www.osculati.com/en/11004-m-...ling-connector


Tested by Viv Cox, and cannot side load itself or the anchor shank, because there is a shackle between it and the shank. Same principle as Chris' device, but also swivels, plus a bit more streamlined.



I might consider something like this myself. When single handing, I awfully much desire to be able to handle the anchor from the helm. I do it anyway, but it's fairly risky with my present setup.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

While I find this thread sometimes amusing because some treat their position on anchor stuff as a religion, I think something gets lost.

It doesn't really matter if something is strength "X" or "Y" or even if it results in a "weak point". It only matters whether or not the strength is "enough". I'm sure most swivels can be broken under use and feel that's a good thing, as long as the breaking strength meets the "enough" level. Who really cares if a swivel can be broke if you apply full throttle on it backwards? That's not a normal anchor holding problem, that's a "my anchor is jammed under a rock" event.

If you apply enough force to your anchoring system, something is going to break! That's the way it is and as expected. The question is whether the strength of the system is "enough" and what you are basing that on. Me, I'm not basing it on something like a backwards or 90+ degree pull with enough force to rip my cleats off or something.

Be real people.

I think this is logical and useful.


However, for the record -- 90 degree pulls do happen in "real life". Happened to me once, and my anchor was rendered unusable as a result.


That being said -- it may really be so, that we just don't care whether a swivel is as strong as the chain in a side pull, because the shank will certainly not stand up to the force of such a pull, so that degree of strength won't get tested because the anchor will fail first.


But that means -- doesn't it? -- that we should pay attention also to whether a given device is design in a way which will exert such forces on the anchor shaft. I personally don't want anything which levers the anchor shaft in a way which would tend to bend it.

[boom23]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

If you want a device to flip your anchor the right way around, a better choice might be something like the Osculati Twist:


https://www.osculati.com/en/11004-m-...ling-connector


Tested by Viv Cox, and cannot side load itself or the anchor shank, because there is a shackle between it and the shank. Same principle as Chris' device, but also swivels, plus a bit more streamlined.

Interesting design but the company provides no data or testing information. That scares me even more...

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

If you want a device to flip your anchor the right way around, a better choice might be something like the Osculati Twist:
Tested by Viv Cox, and cannot side load itself or the anchor shank, because there is a shackle between it and the shank. Same principle as Chris' device, but also swivels, plus a bit more streamlined.

As you note, Osculati also produce the twist, which is another flip link.

I remember Vyv Cox had a cranked Osculati swivel, but was far from happy with it. He found the Osculati inhibited the performance of his anchor, no doubt for the very reasons I mentioned in post #143.

He described it as a “disaster” “inhibited anchoring” and leading to “frequent dragging”. I don’t think the cranked Osculati he was using is the same as the Twist. (Perhaps he also used the Twist?) Osculati produce a bewildering product array.

However, this example does illustrate that you need to be very careful using anything that can potentially catch and jam such as a flip link. (The Ultra flip swivel is fixed to the anchor shank. It works in a different way so should not have these issues).

This is the reason I would not recommend any flip links such as the Osculati twist and Anchor Right flip link, at least to boats anchoring overnight.

In my view, companies selling these flip links should alert customers to watch out and test for the potential problems they may cause with anchor performance. These problems are very difficult to predict. With some anchor and chain combinations the performance drop may be none existent. Others may have a very severe drop of the type Vyv reported with his cranked swivel. Some combinations may only have an effect in unusual conditions.

[groundtackle]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

As you note, Osculati also produce the twist, which is another flip link.

I remember Vyv Cox had a cranked Osculati swivel, but was far from happy with it. He found the Osculati inhibited the performance of his anchor, no doubt for the very reasons I mentioned in post #143.

He described it as a “disaster” “inhibited anchoring” and leading to “frequent dragging”. I don’t think the cranked Osculati he was using is the same as the Twist. (Perhaps he also used the Twist?) Osculati produce a bewildering product array.

However, this example does illustrate that you need to be very careful using anything that can potentially catch and jam such as a flip link. (The Ultra flip swivel is fixed to the anchor shank. It works in a different way so should not have these issues).

This is the reason I would not recommend any flip links such as the Osculati twist and Anchor Right flip link, at least to boats anchoring overnight.

In my view, companies selling these flip links should alert customers to watch out and test for the potential problems they may cause with anchor performance. These problems are very difficult to predict. With some anchor and chain combinations the performance drop may be none existent. Others may have a very severe drop of the type Vyv reported with his cranked swivel. Some combinations may only have an effect in unusual conditions.

Noelex, we have already been down the Flip Link thing with you a few years ago on this site but I’m happy to revisit again for those that missed it.
BTW, did you happen to read that AAC review of the Excel. Great when someone actually has some in field experience with products before making comments don’t you think.
Chris

[Kenomac]

While we’re still waiting for one vendor’s photos and facts on competing swivel failures, here’s some pics of our Ultra 45kg and swivel stuck in rocks. No damage to either despite pulling back hard for a reset, then retrieval.

You can see that it got jammed in quite tight in the third photo, and yes.... that’s an Ultra swivel that was attached to the anchor for those four days off Sardinia.