Anchor Swivel Really Needed?

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by groundtackle

Noelex, we have already been down the Flip Link thing with you a few years ago on this site but I’m happy to revisit again for those that missed it.
BTW, did you happen to read that AAC review of the Excel. Great when someone actually has some in field experience with products before making comments don’t you think.
Chris

I would like to be able to read the report, but I have not subscribed.

It is normal when a manufacturer submits a product for review that they retain the right to distribute the review. If you look at other anchor manufacturers such as Spade, Rocna, Manson etc, you can read all the reviews that have been published (or at least those that the manufacturer wishes you to read because they are favourable) without subscribing, purchasing back issues etc.

Originally Posted by groundtackle

Great when someone actually has some in field experience with products before making comments don’t you think.
Chris

I guess that this comment is a not so subtle swipe directed at me, as I comment on many anchor designs that I make clear I have never owned.

I would maintain that by observing anchors I can usually make a better assessment than many owners. It is not unusual to see an anchor struggling where the owner has no idea that something unusual is happening.

This thread is about swivels and associated hardware, not about Anchor Right anchors. You have attacked a number of swivel designs, and of course these are swivels that are often made by other anchor manufacturers.

Frankly, I sympathise with some of your comments. However, I think it very poor form for a manufacturer to attack the opposition’s products, especially with gross generalisations such as stating they all fail to meet specifications, and then to back away from any explanation or justification.

At the same you seem feel any criticisms of Anchor Rights own Flip Link can be dismissed by attacking the member that raised these concerns. I am not impressed.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

. . . I would maintain that by observing anchors I can usually make a better assessment than many owners. It is not unusual to see an anchor struggling where the owner has no idea that something unusual is happening..

In case anyone in this thread is unaware of the work Noelex, and his wife Seaworthy Lass, have done in this field -- they systematically observed, by diving and watching as different cruisers anchored their boats, over a long period of time and a large sample size, and photographed all of this, and posted the results of all this work for the great benefit of all of us.


Is there any better source of real knowledge on how anchors and ground tackle perform, then actual observation of their behavior, over a large sample size?



I think Noelex is being modest here. He is, I think, better qualified to opine about how various types of ground tackle actually perform in real life, than any of us, having as a foundation of his opinions a large mass of real direct observations.


I have used Spade anchors for a couple of decades and have some knowledge of how they perform, but have I actually seen how they set, or actually seen how they fail? Nope. But Nolex has.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I would like to be able to read the report, but I have not subscribed.

It is normal when a manufacturer submits a product for review that they retain the right to distribute the review. If you look at other anchor manufacturers such as Spade, Rocna, Manson etc, you can read all the reviews that have been published (or at least those that the manufacturer wishes you to read because they are favourable) without subscribing, purchasing back issues etc.



I guess that this comment is a not so subtle swipe directed at me, as I comment on many anchor designs that I make clear I have never owned.

I would maintain that by observing anchors I can usually make a better assessment than many owners. It is not unusual to see an anchor struggling where the owner has no idea that something unusual is happening.

This thread is about swivels and associated hardware, not about Anchor Right anchors. You have attacked a number of swivel designs, and of course these are swivels that are often made by other anchor manufacturers.

Frankly, I sympathise with some of your comments. However, I think it very poor form for a manufacturer to attack the opposition’s products, especially with gross generalisations such as stating they all fail to meet specifications, and then to back away from any explanation or justification.

At the same you seem feel any criticisms of Anchor Rights own Flip Link can be dismissed by attacking the member that raised these concerns. I am not impressed.

I tend to agree with these sentiments, however I believe that it should be pointed out that the manufacturer has not entered into the fray but one of the distributors of of their products.

[groundtackle]

First day of the Vancouver boat show and really busy.
So.. The Ultra rep and I sat down to discuss this thread, anchors and related hardware issues. We are going to meet again after we both gather some more technical information. There are time zones and wait times to collect it all.
Together we are going to post the information that all of you require. So stand by.
Chris

[Bleemus]

Originally Posted by groundtackle

First day of the Vancouver boat show and really busy.

So.. The Ultra rep and I sat down to discuss this thread, anchors and related hardware issues. We are going to meet again after we both gather some more technical information. There are time zones and wait times to collect it all.

Together we are going to post the information that all of you require. So stand by.

Chris

Not holding my breath. Sitting on my Spade anchor with a Crosby 209A shackle with no swivel sipping a rum. Take your time.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by groundtackle

Kenomac, that could work as long as he buys them by the case. That ultra ‘bridge’ gimmick will break with even the slightest backwards tug in a seabed jammed anchor scenario. It won’t pass the tests or WLL specs installed like in your constantly posted vids. Are you a vendor? Because if so we should talk. In fact I’d like an ultra rep to contact me soon before I say more. So Ill just stop now if you will.
Chris

Originally Posted by Kenomac

While we’re still waiting for one vendor’s photos and facts on competing swivel failures, here’s some pics of our Ultra 45kg and swivel stuck in rocks. No damage to either despite pulling back hard for a reset, then retrieval.

You can see that it got jammed in quite tight in the third photo, and yes.... that’s an Ultra swivel that was attached to the anchor for those four days off Sardinia.

My photos of our Ultra 45kg with swivel attacked seem to contradict your statement "The Ultra bridge gimmick will break with even the slightest backwards tug in a seabed jammed anchor scenario.". We tugged in reverse at 2200rpm with our 25 ton yacht not knowing we were in a "seabed jammed anchor scenario" until we attempted to retrieve the anchor four days later. Like noelex 77, I’ve gone down and taken my fair share of anchor photos too.

How do you explain this apparent reality-based contradiction to your theoretical assertion? Care to comment?

BTW: We only have one Ultra swivel.... not a case of them.

[groundtackle]

Originally Posted by Bleemus

Not holding my breath. Sitting on my Spade anchor with a Crosby 209A shackle with no swivel sipping a rum. Take your time.

Bleemus, I like your style.
What kind of rum and glass combination are you using. Please provide evidence in pics or prefer video.
Cheers, Chris

[Bleemus]

Originally Posted by groundtackle

Bleemus, I like your style.

What kind of rum and glass combination are you using. Please provide evidence in pics or prefer video.

Cheers, Chris

Papa Pilar Rum tonight.

[Bleemus]

Sorry for the shitty picture. The camera on this tablet sucks.

[groundtackle]

Haha.. mine is coming soon. Show is almost over so mine is pouring soon.
Don’t worry about the pic quality. I have a free app that cleans up images so we can all discuss your electrical system.
Cheers

[Factor]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I would like to be able to read the report, but I have not subscribed.

It is normal when a manufacturer submits a product for review that they retain the right to distribute the review. If you look at other anchor manufacturers such as Spade, Rocna, Manson etc, you can read all the reviews that have been published (or at least those that the manufacturer wishes you to read because they are favourable) without subscribing, purchasing back issues etc.

I am not sure I understand - are you saying that it is Anchor Rights fault that the reviewer has chosen to retain the copyright in the published worK?

I guess that this comment is a not so subtle swipe directed at me, as I comment on many anchor designs that I make clear I have never owned. I would maintain that by observing anchors I can usually make a better assessment than many owners. It is not unusual to see an anchor struggling where the owner has no idea that something unusual is happening.

I think it was a direct comment. I don't think subtlety entered into it. You have been strident in your condemnation of the excel on the basis of its similar appearance to a delta and in the absence of any direct experience using the Excel. In comparison almost everyone who has actually used them has a different opinion, one that is based on actual experience not on perceived appearance. I can say that the AAC review is highly complimentary as is Panope's work, as is independent testing as is my personal experience. I think all a number of us have ever asked is for you to not reject something without evidence, to not criticise something based on appearance.

The AAC article also arrived at similar conclusions relating to the ability/reliability of resets by roll bar anchors, something that I have been long concerned about and something that lead my to spend my own money and buy an Excel many years ago.

[groundtackle]

Factor, thanks very much for this.
AAC / Morgan’s Cloud is a site that everyone should be a member of. It’s something like $22 yr. You save that amount in an hour of reading their excellent library. To stay on topic there are many quick reads on swivels, anchors, anchoring and all the related systems.
We knew the rules when Colin Speedie tested the Excel and that review will remain behind their inexpensive firewall.
We at Ground Tackle Marine would like to extend this offer;
Join AAC during the months of February or March 2019 and we will refund your first years dues with the purchase of an anchor. Additionally all ACC members automatically qualify for a 10% discount on any purchase from Ground Tackle Marine including our premium Excel anchors.

Noelex, regardless of any purchase we will also extend to you the offer of an annual membership. Show us proof of purchase and we’ll happily send you a check.
Chris

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Factor

You have been strident in your condemnation of the excel

Factor, I have not “condemned” the Excel, but I don’t think it belongs in the top tier of anchors. In my view, if you cannot fit a rollbar anchor then the steel Spade is a significantly superior choice.

Anyway, I can only offer my honest opinion on anchors, swivels, flip links etc. These are inert lumps of metal. I hope in future posts we can keep the focus on the hardware (and the subject here is swivels, not anchors) rather than allowing these threads to degenerate into Ad hominem attacks.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by groundtackle

Noelex, regardless of any purchase we will also extend to you the offer of an annual membership. Show us proof of purchase and we’ll happily send you a check.

Thank you for the offer.

However, to maintain my independence, I do not accept any gifts, discounts, etc from any manufacturers or distributors.

I have accepted (and will probably will again in the future accept) anchors for evaluation, but these will be returned at the end of the evaluation period. I did keep the Mantus anchor after evaluation, as it was better than my previous Rocna anchor, but I paid the normal price for it.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Factor, I have not “condemned” the Excel, but I don’t think it belongs in the top tier of anchors. In my view, if you cannot fit a rollbar anchor then the steel Spade is a significantly superior choice.

Anyway, I can only offer my honest opinion on anchors, swivels, flip links etc. These are inert lumps of metal. I hope in future posts we can keep the focus on the hardware (and the subject here is swivels, not anchors) rather than allowing these threads to degenerate into Ad hominem attacks.

Friends just offered me a big Sarca, 33 or 35kg, for some help I did for them. They are replacing it with a Spade. Our anchoring gear is already setup fine, so I didn't take it. The decision to go to a Spade was based on a dragging event they had in a storm with the Sarca. Nothing more than anecdote.