Anchor Swivel Really Needed?

[groundtackle]

Kenomac, UFS 13-60 I got it now, that's the correct one, sorry. What Grade of chain? What kind a vessel do you have, weight?
I'm not targeting Ultra in particular. My concern is installing any swivel fork or jaw directly on an anchor shank and pull it 90 deg. I'd like to see manufacturers results for that particular test.
CMP or the maker of rocna anchors is working on a swivel. Its in development stage with proof testing completed. I've had them in my hands and are very nice. I believe they will meet the specs of my concern.
There is that picture thing and digs again..I'm not posting them. I see lots of broken things and usually its operator error or installations that don't follow instructions. A pic of something broken without accurately outlining the circumstance is unfair to a manufacturer.
Chris

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by groundtackle

Kenomac, UFS 13-60 I got it now, that's the correct one, sorry. What Grade of chain? What kind a vessel do you have, weight?
I'm not targeting Ultra in particular. My concern is installing any swivel fork or jaw directly on an anchor shank and pull it 90 deg. I'd like to see manufacturers results for that particular test.
CMP or the maker of rocna anchors is working on a swivel. Its in development stage with proof testing completed. I've had them in my hands and are very nice. I believe they will meet the specs of my concern.
There is that picture thing and digs again..I'm not posting them. I see lots of broken things and usually its operator error or installations that don't follow instructions. A pic of something broken without accurately outlining the circumstance is unfair to a manufacturer.
Chris

As stated (written) numerous times on this thread, the boat is a 25 ton Oyster 53 with a 100hp Yanmar which is capable of pulling back rather substantially when setting an anchor.

We've still seen absolutely no proof on your part of anything that you suggest and accuse, regarding the shortcomings of the other manufacturer's products.

[groundtackle]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You seem to have either a reading comprehension issue or a propensity to misquote and redirect when confronted with differing opinions or proof of when you are proven wrong. I've very clearly stated (written) at least eight times during this thread that we have a 45kg Ultra anchor attached to a properly sized UFS13 swivel with 1/2 chain (12mm).

Please show us the pictures of the "boxes of broken swivels under [your] workbench" that you claim to have, but have so far failed to provide on this thread. I've shown you my photos.

Plus.... why in the world would you even consider "cutting off the bridge" on the Ultra swivel which would void the warranty and weaken the structural integrity of the swivel? It seems to me that the prudent thing to do if one did in fact possess a broken Ultra swivel, would be to return it to the company for a full refund or replacement under their warranty.

Kenomac, I have cut them off because the bridge is bent or broken. I'm a metal fabricator and tig welding instructor so I understand what I'm looking at. In no way does the removal of that bridge weaken the structural integrity. The customer owns it and happy to oblige as long as they are not doing something unsafe.
Going after the warranty on damage is sometimes not worth the effort without knowing all the parameters, history and documentation of the event. It does however give the maker some feedback leading to improvements that benefits us all. I personally want want to hear about our products, gives me a chance to defend or learn something new.
The fact that I've seen bent swivels and shackles with the anchor still attached is testament of the abuse they can take. Bringing up the chain without an anchor attached also happens more than you might think. Our customers like to tell us stories and we encourage it.
While at the Vancouver boat show I spent some time with the Canadian Ultra rep. We discussed this thread and he was bringing any concerns to the OEM. They haven't responded yet but I'm sure they are monitoring this thread. I was kinda hoping for their input.
Chris

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by groundtackle

Kenomac, I have cut them off because the bridge is bent or broken. I'm a metal fabricator and tig welding instructor so I understand what I'm looking at. In no way does the removal of that bridge weaken the structural integrity. The customer owns it and happy to oblige as long as they are not doing something unsafe.
Going after the warranty on damage is sometimes not worth the effort without knowing all the parameters, history and documentation of the event. It does however give the maker some feedback leading to improvements that benefits us all. I personally want want to hear about our products, gives me a chance to defend or learn something new.
The fact that I've seen bent swivels and shackles with the anchor still attached is testament of the abuse they can take. Bringing up the chain without an anchor attached also happens more than you might think. Our customers like to tell us stories and we encourage it.
While at the Vancouver boat show I spent some time with the Canadian Ultra rep. We discussed this thread and he was bringing any concerns to the OEM. They haven't responded yet but I'm sure they are monitoring this thread. I was kinda hoping for their input.
Chris

I’m guessing the Ultra rep deduced that you were wasting his time just like you’re wasting our time with your unsubstantiated accusations towards the swivels made by competing manufacturers.

No photos + no data + no testimonials = rumors and false accusations on your part.

Ultra Anchors and most of the competing manufacturers offer a no questions asked replacement policy and/or a lifetime warranty on their products, so I very seriously doubt a customer with an expensive swivel or anchor would give you a broken swivel to cut up and modify, rather than return it to a manufacturer for replacement.

[zippy]

Can anyone identify this swivel? It is attached to 44 pound Rocna. the boats is new to me and it would be nice to know if it is a good brand.

[zippy]

Correction it’s a Rocna 33. Which is 33kg.

[MikeFergie]

Originally Posted by zippy

Can anyone identify this swivel? It is attached to 44 pound Rocna. Attachment 206769Attachment 206770 the boats is new to me and it would be nice to know if it is a good brand.

Not a good place for a swivel to be fitted. A shackle or some chain onto the anchor shank would allow for it to pull sideways without breaking the shackle which can happen with side loading forces

[sailcrazy]

Looks like a Kong swivel to me. We (also) use a Rochna, 25kg, with a Kong swivel on our 32klb monohull. However, I've put a Crosby Horseshoe clevis on the Rochna, then a (approx) 8 links of chain, and then the Kong Swivel. We've used this combo for most of our Medd sailing, and all of our Caribb sailing. Unfortunately-the swivel does NOT seem to swivel under load! As soon as the anchor is set, and I've got the snubber attached, the excess chain deployed starts wrapping itself the snubber as the rode twists. It all comes up OK, but usually our Rochna comes up backward. It rights itself OK as it comes over the bow roller. FWIW, we did use an Osculati Twist for several years....it worked fine, but after reading the Practical Sailor (unbiased???) article on swivels, I began to not trust the swivel, and removed it. The swivel attached directly to the anchor shank, with a 90* pull on it (changing winds, etc), looks like an accident looking for a place to happen!

[wsmurdoch]

Originally Posted by sailcrazy

Unfortunately-the swivel does NOT seem to swivel under load!

Also my experience with an Acco swivel that I used for a few years with eight or ten links of chain between it and the anchor shackle. Under even a moderate (read light) load, I could twist the chain to the point that the chain hockled into dreadlocks, and the swivel would not swivel. Stainless on stainless or galvanizing on galvanizing are miserable bearing surfaces.

Bill

[Fuss]

Its not a Kong from what I can see.
Secondly it needs replacing, look at the stress the forks have. This is the reason not to use cheap swivels.
Fit for purpose swivels bend the anchor shank while remaining in perfect condition.
The Wasi swivel is designed primarily for the Bugel anchor. The hole at the end of the shank is round, this stops the swivel getting jammed.

[Michael Cobbe]

Anchor swivels


I was in a bay in Greece when there was a wind reversal, three charter boats were washed ashotre they all had swivels.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Michael Cobbe

Anchor swivels


I was in a bay in Greece when there was a wind reversal, three charter boats were washed ashotre they all had swivels.

Their poor anchoring tecnique probably had nothing to do with the fact that the charter company put swivels on.


That being said -- I haven't used a swivel in many years. Perhaps some people do really need them, but I don't. OP might try just getting rid of it and anchor wiht it a dozen or so times -- he might be surprised.


Good reading on the subject with actual testing: http://coxeng.co.uk/anchoring/connectors/.


I agree with those who said the swivel depicted in the OP is not indeed a Kong and is well on its way to failure. Needs to be tossed out, today.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by sailcrazy

Looks like a Kong swivel to me.

Originally Posted by Fuss

Its not a Kong from what I can see.

Our Kong swivel moves in two planes, apparently to better handle side-loading... not like the one pictured...

-Chris

[SV__Grace]

Hmm.... following this thread with interest as I removed my swivel to try out a flip link (which isn't working reliably for me) and debating whether to continue using the swivel.

The Ultra swivel design is cool and I like that it has both functions, but I can't get past the requirement to install the swivel directly to the anchor and rely on a 30 degree articulation limit.

Here's a thread with an informative response by Ultra-
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3099925

I'm tempted, but if I return to a swivel it will be the Mantus that I have been using successfully. It's well designed with a much higher breaking strength than my HT G43 chain, and comes with an oversized shackle to attach to the anchor for full articulation.

True story- I purchased one of the first batch of the new Mantus anchor swivel directly from Greg at a boat show a few years ago, tried it, and my anchor chain was twisting so badly it seemed worse than having no swivel.

I contacted Greg about the problem and he figured out that the swivel pin had too much friction and needed polishing after manufacture. He sent me a new swivel with a polished pin and that did the trick.

However, since the swivel pin is enclosed inside the swivel it seemed a risk for getting fouled with grit so I decided to lubricate it with Aqua Shield and it has worked flawlessly since.

If you're not familiar with Aqua Shield, it's an amazing lubricant for underwater applications and I use it on my seacock ball valves. Use gloves as it's sticky and goopy and hard to clean off, but works wonders and lasts a long time.

[Sailing Drummer]

I stopped using a swivel about 4 years ago and only rarely does the chain twist and the anchor come up wrong. I always check the chain as it’s coming in to make sure the links between the gypsy and chain roller are lined up. Once in a while while raising the chain, if there’s pull from the inside of the roller (in my case the port side) the chain will twist 1/4 turn. When that happens I let out a little slack on the chain and reach over, pull it up and turn it back to the normal alignment and the anchor comes up correctly. That happens maybe once every 30 or 40 times I pull the anchor.