Anchor Swivel Really Needed?

[groundtackle]

Ranger, do you think you may have room for a flip link without the chain stopper? There are other ways to grab the chain that in my opinion can work better and potential eliminate a certain bad outcome that’s inherent with chain stoppers.
Chris

[boom23]

Ok... I am getting 10mm G43 galvanized chain, Ultra 45kg anchor and the Ultra UFS 13-60 swivel, so I am a little biased but still skeptical.

Here are some numbers of my setup...

10mm, 3/8" G43 chain
Maximum Working Load: 5,400 lb.
Breaking Load: 16,200 lb.

Ultra UFS 13-60 swivel
Breaking Load: 36,200 lb.
I do not have any side load strength data.

Ultra 45 kg (100 lb) anchor
Good for up to 30 ton, 58 ft sailboat.
I do not have any shank strength data.
Maximum anchor holding power depends on bottom.

Lets assume the anchor is stuck in rocks and it can hold 16,200 lb (chain breaking load).

Scenario 1: Based on the above data and conditions, if there is no anchor shank side load, having no anchor shank strength data, the chain (or the anchor shank) is the weak link. It is possible that the anchor shank might break.

Scenario 2: If there is more than 16,500 lbs pull to the side (not up) of the anchor shank, the shank or the swivel might bend/break. I am hoping that the swivel will handle 16,200 lb side load (chain breaking load, less than half the swivel straight line breaking load). This is the worst case scenario.

Scenario 3: If there is upward pull, the Ultra anchor shank or swivel bridge might break. If the swivel bridge breaks, the swivel will be still intact, pull straight up, and it will have close to max strength (at least more than the chain or maybe the anchor shank which is unknown). In this case, the next thing to break will be the chain or anchor shank.

So, looking at the worst case scenario, I am anchored in the worst possible storm, the pull on the anchor is close to 16,500 lbs, and the anchor is really stuck.

I do not even know if my boat can generate that much pull on the anchor. Mr. Jordan (series drogue inventor) estimated that the force on a 40ft sloop in a 100 mph hurricane is under 2,000 lb (Should you anchor from the stern in a storm?). The chain working load is 5,400 lb. Most anchor tests max out at 5,000 lb.

My plan is to keep an eye on the swivel for signs of stress. My guess is that this will never happen during the lifetime of my anchor setup.

[Typhoon]

We have an ultra anchor with the ultra swivel , your going to love them .

Regards John

[boom23]

Originally Posted by ColdEh Marine

We have an ultra anchor with the ultra swivel , your going to love them .

Regards John

Thank you! That's good to hear. I am used to oversized Rocna and Manson Supreme with the Mantus anchor swivel. I never had a problem even during some really nasty weather in New Zealand.

I am looking forward to using the Ultra hardware. Hopefully, I will never test their (or my wife's) limits...

[Simi 60]

The confirmation bias is strong here. (-;

[boom23]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

The confirmation bias is strong here. (-;

If you are talking about my post...

No doubt, as I said I am biased. But, please point out holes in my thinking. I can take it.

Even at severely EXTREME conditions & circumstances, my anchor swivel will not be the weak link in my setup. My anchor will probably never see forces close to 5,000 lb, which is 2.5 times greater than what Mr. Jordan estimated (he actually estimated 1,200 lbs, but rounded up to 2,000 lbs for a safety margin) for a 40ft sloop in 100 mph winds.

If you are not talking about my post, never mind...

[wsmurdoch]

I used a ACCO galvanized swivel for a couple of years with a bit of chain between the swivel and the anchor. I still have it, but I don't use it. It did not break. Its real fault was that it did not swivel and let the twists out of the chain.

Under a load, it just locked up and did not twist. There was no way. The bearing surfaces were rough galvanizing.

I've looked at the fancy stainless steel swivels. They are expensive, and I don't think stainless/stainless is a particularly low friction bearing pair. I've not seen a stainless/bronze swivel or a swivel with a proper ball bearing. (The hook and line fishing guys have them for their heavy tackle.)

I'd like to see a testing of swivels to see which ones actually swivel under load. Maybe put each swivel under a 250 lb load and measure the torque required to make the thing turn. It should not be too hard to do. I've twisted up a length of chain attached at its far end to my garage wall with the ACCO swivel at that end. With the chain hanging in the air and enough twist to start a hockle, the swivel will not swivel.

Many worry about swivels breaking. For me, a swivel failure is a failure to swivel.

Bill

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by groundtackle

Kenomac, that could work as long as he buys them by the case. That ultra ‘bridge’ gimmick will break with even the slightest backwards tug in a seabed jammed anchor scenario. It won’t pass the tests or WLL specs installed like in your constantly posted vids. Are you a vendor? Because if so we should talk. In fact I’d like an ultra rep to contact me soon before I say more. So Ill just stop now if you will.
Chris

To date, you Sir have not posted any credible data, evidence or pictures on this thread, but you sure have made quite a few excusses for not doing so, and quite the number of accusations towards all other swivel manufacturers. I would even go so far as considering what you’ve written as being unsubstantiated “product bashing” of competing brands.

I will suggest it’s time for you to put foward your evidence that you claim to have, or appologize to the manufactures you accuse of “not meeting specifications” on their products. Your above statement seems to border on or in fact to be libelous.

We have had our Ultra Anchor and swivel buried and stuck in rock on the seabed twice, and no.....it did not break when we pulled back on it or attempted to bring it up as you suggest will happen.

[groundtackle]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

To date, you Sir have not posted any credible data, evidence or pictures on this thread, but you sure have made quite a few excusses for not doing so, and quite the number of accusations towards all other swivel manufacturers. I would even go so far as considering what you’ve written as being unsubstantiated “product bashing” of competing brands.

I will suggest it’s time for you to put foward your evidence that you claim to have, or appologize to the manufactures you accuse of “not meeting specifications” on their products. Your above statement seems to border on or in fact to be libelous.

We have had our Ultra Anchor and swivel buried and stuck in rock on the seabed twice, and no.....it did not break when we pulled back on it or attempted to bring it up as you suggest will happen.

Ken, I didn’t say the entire swivel will break. What I am saying is that stop or ‘bridge’ as they call it welded to the up side of that swivel will not hold up when the rode is backwards loaded. Just look at it for yourself and imagine that scenario. Do you honestly think that item can be stressed to tonage loading? It’s a itty bitty welded tab against severe angular pull. It just lets go and I do see it happen. It’s a solution for anchors that come up inverted that will and does work. However the certs demand that no breakage or permanent deformation can be observed. They don’t pass in my world.
Chris

[boom23]

If the Ultra swivel bridge breaks, it will most likely break at the top where it contacts the anchor shaft or at the bottom where it connects to the swivel body. This could happen in the case of pulling straight up and the anchor is wedged under a rock. What kind of force is needed to break the bridge and can the windlass generate it? Regardless, even with the bridge breaking, the swivel should still be functional. The swivel will just rotate up.

If you have pictures and data of this, please post them and/or pass them to the Ultra company.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Interesting thread, thank you to all the contributors.

After extensive research, I just ordered a 45Kg Ultra, #13 swivel (36,200 bl) and 100m of grade 60 CROMOX 12mm electro polished 316L chain (31,300 bl) in an effort to deploy what I hope is a best-practice solution for a FP Saba (~21 ton gross) that will largely live on the hook.

Although I haven’t seen any side-load test data, even IF the “bridge” failed, it doesn’t seem it would lead to imminent failure of the swivel itself.

With all the bashing of the Ultra swivel, I’m curious if there is ANY known record of one having EVER failed?

[groundtackle]

Why is this suddenly my problem, I didn’t make them.
Ok then.
I retract all my statements and personally apologize for any wrongdoings related to any of my statements of claims or breakages.
Please accept my deepest regret for ever making any statements regarding these fine certified components.
Chris

[boom23]

Originally Posted by groundtackle

Why is this suddenly my problem, I didn’t make them.
Ok then.
I retract all my statements and personally apologize for any wrongdoings related to any of my statements of claims or breakages.
Please accept my deepest regret for ever making any statements regarding these fine certified components.
Chris

It is a problem because it affects our safety and/or a company's product reputation. You can't make a serious accusation and not back it up with proof. Please post proof.

[groundtackle]

Originally Posted by boom23

It is a problem because it affects our safety and/or a company's product reputation. You can't make a serious accusation and not back it up with proof. Please post proof.

I’m sorry if my findings contradict other opinions. I guess I’m on my own with this one.
When I submit my proofs, then what? I’m already confident in my stance. What do I get?
Chris

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by groundtackle

I’m sorry if my findings contradict other opinions. I guess I’m on my own with this one.
When I submit my proofs, then what? I’m already confident in my stance. What do I get?
Chris

No one wants proof. What one wants is FACTS. Opinions are like anuses -- everyone has one.


For what it's worth -- I am sympathetic to what you've said -- it sounds right to me. But I and everyone else would like to know what it's based on, so we can make up our own minds. You deal with these things professionally, so you must have access to a lot of facts -- we are interested in these. Even if they are just data points, which don't constitute proof.


What concerns the Ultra swivel which you've criticized - what you say corresponds to what SEEMS to me is right -- that it can't possibly be as strong in a side pull as the manufacturer's propaganda claims. Just speaking logically -- the thin neck of that thing is not thicker than the chain, yet it's subject to magnified forces by leverage, and there does not exist that alloy of stainless steel, which is many times stronger than G40 (not to speak of G70) chain, so it can't possibly be strong enough to resist that situation. Moreover, there is no point to such a construction in the first place. However -- that's just speculation on my part. You have implied that you've seen these broken, and that perhaps you even have broken ones "under your workbench". We are much more interested in these factual data points, than in your opinion, even if we agree with you. Even hearsay ("my cousin Bob broke one in Tasmania last year") is interesting -- we're not in court; no one is "proving" anything.



What do you "get out of it"? Well, what do you hope to get out of this discussion at all? A gold star? You get what the rest of us do -- you learn something new, you test your opinions against challenges (and joyously change the ones which are thus found wanting), you have satisfaction from sharing knowledge with others.