Anchor swivel - Red or Blue Loctite?

[CdS2 Roland]

Hello,
I just bought a Suncor swivel for my new ancor. They send me blue loctite with it. Also recommanded allow 24 hours to dry...

[Paul L]

The swivel/connector is a Clarke, made in Japan with a SWL 1250kg at 6 to 1 saftey factor. This one both swivels and articulates, so no extra chain leader should be needed.

For those that say 'no swivel', there are good reasons. I have a large Spade anchor that has no problem coming up onto the roller. We are at anchor for 6 months plus at a time in lots of varying conditions. The chain , 100 M, tends to get significant hockles in the area beyond (in the anchor locker) where the chain normally doesn't get used (last 100 Ft). This can be dangerous if you have a few hundred feet out and then get hit at 3am with an unexpected storm. Letting more out can jam hard in the windlass if the chain hockles don't clear.

The swivel is an attempt to reduce the times where the chain needs to be dumped and straightened out.

I also have a slotted roller than helps.

The package did not have any loctite in it. I grabbed my bag of goops and took out both the red and blue loctite. The blue one was empty, so I tried to talk myself into using the red one- hence the question.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by bvander

If you go with a Black Pin Shackle it's HSS, and has a higher working load than the chain. Made by Titan.

My wisdom missile missed the target.

Now that you have a nanocarbon shackle: which part of your anchoring system is the weak link?

In other words: what point of the whole set should be the weakest link?

b.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

In other words: what point of the whole set should be the weakest link?

b.

The chain

The Mantus swivel is much stronger than my G40 chain, and you do not need chain between it and the anchor like you do many swivels

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

My wisdom missile missed the target.

Now that you have a nanocarbon shackle: which part of your anchoring system is the weak link?

In other words: what point of the whole set should be the weakest link?

b.

Is this supposed to be a trick question? What answer are you looking for?

• In mud it will be the anchor. You may drag.
• Hooked on a rock it could be the shackle, swivel, or chain. If it is the shackle or swivel, all you loose is the anchor and maybe the boat. But if the chain/shackle/snubber are properly sized, the WLL of the system will never be exceeded, so there is no weak link that matters. Skip the long snubber, and you are on your own.

If your anchor (or chain) pops mid-storm I doubt the dollar value of what is lost matters much.

[darylat8750]

Cotemar.. Nice neat job. I shall do that to mine this spring.

[powsmias]

Originally Posted by Spade Anchor

The Wasi PowerBall swivel is rated for at least 2000 lbs above the breaking strength of any chain that can be attached to it. The only Swivel endorsed by Lloyd's. This swivel eliminates the need for any shackles on your rode. Making what was once the weakest point on your rode ( shackle) the strongest point, letting you focus your maintenance on the chain.

That said, do you recommend a length of chain between your swivel and the anchor?
thanx in advance

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

The chain

(...)

But if it is the chain you will agree we do not know where it will snap so maybe right on the bow. Now you have just lost say 300' of 1/2'' G40 ACCO ...

Rewind once. Imagine the shackle (or a swivel) is a quality one, but rated at BL some figure below your chain BL. Now the shackle goes and you have some 300' of 1/2'' chain left ($$) that may actually slow your drift rate onto the next downwind neighbour.

Good / bad?

b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by thinwater

(...)

If your anchor (or chain) pops mid-storm I doubt the dollar value of what is lost matters much.

OK. Agreed. $$ value we scratch this (vide #19 and my response)

But what about the chain value (use value not dollar value)? Is it not easier to attach another anchor to an existing long piece of chain sitting on the winch than to drag new chain (IF it exists) from the bilge, on the deck, then attach the spare anchor ... while time is precious and the foredeck is a hell of a dance floor? Unless your boat has two lockers, two chains and two anchors. I know many that do not.

I agree with both you and #19. Still, my gut feeling is I'd rather keep that chain.

On my boat, if all calculations are OK, then the shackle is the weakest link and, should I ease all chain, then the polyester tail in the chain locker is the weakest point. I assume the bronze and teak cleat on the foredeck is weaker than that shackle too (just maybe, no real way to test this without damage).

Cheers,
b.

[captstu]

The best thing about a swivel: you always know where your chain will break.

[Jim Cate]

An observation: In our years of cruising, we've seen only two examples of chain breaking. One was old rusty chain that was purchased from a Mexican fisherman who had retired it from use. The other was during a cyclone, involving a 72 foot ferrocement square rigger anchored on 100 feet of 1/2 inch chain, a huge Danforth, and no snubber. Chain of unknown condition.

This in 30 years of observation. During that time, we've seen quite a few references to failed swivels. Nolex's mermaid even photographed one in the very act of failing. We've seen a few examples of badly distorted swivels that had not yet failed, but were retired in time.

IMO, this pretty well describes the weak link in anchoring systems... IF you ignore the fact that the holding power of anchors is generally far less than even the weak link in the rode! Jammed or snagged anchors can obviously exceed their normal holding power, but represent a tiny fraction of anchoring situations.

And FWIW, I have not been able to detect much difference in chain locker hockling with/without a swivel. I don't understand how such twists get past our vertical axis gypsy,but there they are at times. I suspect small aliens who live in the locker are just getting even with me for pouring muddy water on them when raising the hook.

Finally, for those systems that preclude proper mousing, I suspect that when applied per instructions, either red or blue Loc-tite will retain the pin just fine.

Jim

[a64pilot]

Check this swivel, it breaks at 19,000 lbs, 5/16" G43 chain beaks at just under 12,000. This swivel is not the weak link, even if I had G70 chain, although of course the margin is less.
http://www.mantusanchors.com/mantus-swivel/

[SV Bacchus]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Imagine the shackle (or a swivel) is a quality one, but rated at BL some figure below your chain BL. Now the shackle goes and you have some 300' of 1/2'' chain left ($$) that may actually slow your drift rate onto the next downwind neighbour.

Me thinks me likes the logic here..

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

But if it is the chain you will agree we do not know where it will snap so maybe right on the bow. Now you have just lost say 300' of 1/2'' G40 ACCO ...

Rewind once. Imagine the shackle (or a swivel) is a quality one, but rated at BL some figure below your chain BL. Now the shackle goes and you have some 300' of 1/2'' chain left ($$) that may actually slow your drift rate onto the next downwind neighbour.

Good / bad?

b.

Just bad.

• You caused the failure. At least there is a good probability this is so.
• The chain drag will be about 4-8 pounds per 10 feet (5/16 HT for 40' boat) actually on the bottom (most won't be). If there are 40 feet actually on the bottom, and the breaking load was over 2000 pounds, that is about 4% of the load and perhaps a 2% difference in drift rate. However, since the shackle broke under a snatch load, I will accept that the actual wind load is only 1000 pounds (testing supports this figure for a 40' boat), so the actual change in draft rate is perhaps 6-12% (V is with with the square of force). Not at that helpful.
• Now that you have a chain dangling, you will need to recover that before you can maneuver. Of course, if the chain breaks that may also be true.

Just check the math.

And you are NOT going to be frogging around with attaching a new anchor (what--the one stored in the bilge?). You will be deploying the secondary, which should be handy.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

An observation: In our years of cruising, we've seen only two examples of chain breaking. One was old rusty chain that was purchased from a Mexican fisherman who had retired it from use. The other was during a cyclone, involving a 72 foot ferrocement square rigger anchored on 100 feet of 1/2 inch chain, a huge Danforth, and no snubber. Chain of unknown condition.

This in 30 years of observation. During that time, we've seen quite a few references to failed swivels. Nolex's mermaid even photographed one in the very act of failing. We've seen a few examples of badly distorted swivels that had not yet failed, but were retired in time.

IMO, this pretty well describes the weak link in anchoring systems... IF you ignore the fact that the holding power of anchors is generally far less than even the weak link in the rode! Jammed or snagged anchors can obviously exceed their normal holding power, but represent a tiny fraction of anchoring situations.

And FWIW, I have not been able to detect much difference in chain locker hockling with/without a swivel. I don't understand how such twists get past our vertical axis gypsy,but there they are at times. I suspect small aliens who live in the locker are just getting even with me for pouring muddy water on them when raising the hook.

Finally, for those systems that preclude proper mousing, I suspect that when applied per instructions, either red or blue Loc-tite will retain the pin just fine.

Jim

I gotta agree with the anchor locker fairies theory. I note that many say twists can't occur but they do....

Another locking method is a couple of dimples applied with a centre punch and hammer where the internal and external threads meet can go a long way to securing the pin!

Interestingly a head honcho of Muirs Engineering (of anchor winch fame) suggested I should use a swivel. I sorta thought he should have an informed opinion so I took his advice. Presumably if correctly engineered and rated properly, the swivel does not need to be the weakest link but as Barnakiel suggests, something must be the weakest link.