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cat man do · 05-11-2006, 23:01

Considering both Arco and Orca come from the same company in OZ I would have thought ther would be a few getting around, and after looking at the site again it appears that Arco is the sheet winch side and Orca is the anchor windlass side of things.

Dave

bvimatelot · 07-11-2006, 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordMay

A Windlass is a specific type of Winch?

Yeah - Could be....just to complicate matters I suppose one could then go on to say that a vertical plane winch/windlass would be a Capstan??

cat man do · 07-11-2006, 18:38

While on the suject of anchoring, do you reckon I should think all chain, or a rope/chain combo.?

And if going all chain, do you still need 5:1 scope, which was my minimum on rope/chain on my last cat.

Even though the new cat has anchor lockers large enough to convert into extra cabin's, I'm still fairly paranoid about extra weight onboard, but saying that, we won't be on marina's at all, and will be relying heavily on our anchoring system.

comments please

Dave

GMac · 07-11-2006, 23:14

Rope and chain. Lighter, cheaper and you can have longer lengths easily.
If going that way pick your winch well and be very fussy about the rope used, they are all far from equal.

If you find you need more chain it is very easy to add onto what you have at a later stage.

Alloy anchor?
"Whoever said that please shut up"

Sandero · 08-11-2006, 04:03

I use all chain which of course has the convenience of not having to have a gypsy that can handle both rope and chain AND the connection. The rope chain splice can be tricky and may not work well with the gypsy... a minor hitch.

With all chain we use a 30' 1" braid on braid on braid nylon with a chain hook which takes shock loads and is tied off to a bow cleat. Chain, of course, doesn't chafe as rope can (on coral), but it does rust. It can be turned end for end too... and is easily marked. It forms a good catenary too which can be used to move the boat to the anchor when weighing it (a minor point). Our anchor line includes a heavy rubber snubber to absorb more shock. You can see when the anchor is dug in and the tension on the line increases as the rubber snubber stretches. This is a useful and handy visual cue to know that you are not dragging!

All chain is heavier on the bow and consideration when sailing... as you want the ends bouyant as possible...

Lifting chain if the windlass fails would definitely be some serious exercise... hopefully the windlass has a manual feature (our's does).

Replacing chain is, of course, more expensive than rope.

I like it... makes good sense when anchoring on rough bottoms.

Jef
sv Shiva
Contest 36s

cat man do · 08-11-2006, 04:14

Hi defjef, what sort of scope do you use on all chain?

**GordMay** · 08-11-2006, 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by defjef

With all chain we use a 30' 1" braid on braid on braid nylon with a chain hook which takes shock loads and is tied off to a bow cleat.
sv Shiva
Contest 36s

One of the exceptions to my general preference towards “bigger is better”, is with anchor chain “snubbers”.
Shock absorbing snubbers work best with longer lines, and smaller diameters - both of which increase it’s shock absorption.
The snubber is not the “ultimate” attachment twixt boat & anchor, which remains the function of the stopped chain.
You don’t specify your chain type & size, but 3/8" PC (2650 Lbs WLL) would be generally sufficient for a 36 footer.
A 1" dia. snubber line (3153 Lbs WLL, or about 18% stronger than the chain) seems excessive for a 36 Ft cruiser.

I’d change the 30 feet of 1" diameter snubber line to 50 feet of ½" or 5/8" braid, or perhaps 5/8" or 3/4" stranded (or even smaller).

FWIW,
Gord

Sandero · 08-11-2006, 07:21

To tell you the truth... I didn't do all the calcs and matching and the 1" braid might very well be 3/4"... I know it is not 5/8".

The rubber snubber is one of those where you twist the line abound it and when there is tension stress (pulling on the line) the twist unlays.. the rubber stretched a bit.. slowly and then as the load lets up it relays the twist. I think the rubber does 90% of the shock absorbing.

I am using 5/16" chain.

All I can say is this system has worked very successfully on my boat in the conditions I have anchored it... which have not been storm conditions... but some have been pretty "challenging".

One thing works nicely with this arangement is that the snubber line is pretty fair and less prone to chafe as would be a rope rode setting in MY anchor roller. Oddly if the boat shears (when it shears) the line in a roller rides up and it did / does chafe against the stainless steel "jaws" of the anchor roller assembly. Other yachts may have similar chafe issues at the bow roller for rope rodes.

Each yacht will have it's own deal. The 5/16" chain and described snubber arrangement has worked for 15 yrs with no complaints. The Maxwell 1100 VWC (now a 1200) has been excellent. I also have float on the bitter end of the anchor snubber in the odd chance it goes overboard... so far so good.

Jef
sv Shiva
Contest 36s

GMac · 08-11-2006, 22:05

As a 'general' rule in average weather, say up to 20kts, 5:1 on a rope to chain rode and 3:1 on a all chain. As the weather goes bad let more out.

Another general rule - more is better than less, swing room allowing.
Yet another general rule - the deeper the water the less scope is needed.

Obviously this general rule needs to be tweaked to match the boat and/or conditions and/or amount of chain used. And as much as I tried to think of another way of putting it, I can't so - some anchors like more scope than others. Anchor debate started and ended here hopefully.

Chain snubbers - small and longer is far better then big and short. You can get away with a lot smaller ropes than many think.

**Boracay** · 05-06-2007, 19:23

At the moment I have an Orca vertical windlass of indeterminate age, size and condition. It is not correctly wired and seems to be in the wrong place.

As I have to move it and wire it correctly it seems like a good time to replace it.

Arco say they will trade in my existing windlass. They are Australian made and have been in business for some time and appear to be able to supply spare parts.

I am currently considering an Arco HE 2000R horizontal windlass. This is the one with the capstan and the gypsy on the same side.

Does anyone have any comments/suggestions/hints?

GMac · 05-06-2007, 20:13

Interesting one there Boracay. Considering I'm just over on the mainland (NZ to you), know all the players very well and we have yet to see one here I'm in 2 minds. We have all the name palyers and a few more but no-one is doing the Arco's.

To me this suggests - They maybe expensive, they may not work well or something else. It just seems very strange we haven't seen them here. They maybe the the best of all but I just don't know, sorry.
The pricing didn't get me to excited but that's just off the website but they may do deals.

There is not much info to go on looking at their site.

One thing is that you maybe locked into an Aussie Std chain. Not a bad thing as long as you don't have to 3/8" or 1/2" and want to do the Med or somewhere further afield, no-one outside Aussie makes them. Even here it is fading away.

JusDreaming · 06-06-2007, 09:02

I personally have a Lofrans Tigress, and I abuse the hell out of it. As a lot of times I am pulling the hook by myself. So I can't motor up to the anchor. So I just pull the boat to the hook. And we are a HEAVY lagoon catamaran. And the tigress has never let me down. It is 1200 watts .
TIGRES Anchor Windlass White 1200W 12VDC

Sandero · 06-06-2007, 12:29

I single hand so I usually cannot motor up to the anchor. But rather than let the windlass pull the boat... I let the weight of the chain catanary pull the boat.

If the wind is not strong and you have out decent scope the chain will form a catanary and some will be lying along the bottom. When you wind in some chain it goes taut.. the catanary is removed. But it won't stay that way and the weight will cause the catanary to form which decreases the chord length and effectively pulls the boat. So the initial pull is only removing the catanary NOT pulling the wight of the boat.

As the chain reforms it's catanary the boat makes way toward the anchor.. slowly, of course. Now you keep winding in the chain and removing the catanary and the chain weight pulls the boat forward. You never really pull the boat, only the slack (catanary) from the chain. This creates way and so you can eventually get the boat right over the anchor and then all you are doing is lifting the chain and anchor up which the windlass can easily handle.

If you did pull the boat and it was windy you would probably overload the windlass and blow a breaker. But you don't have to do that.

In the windy condition when I am single handing I use a cockpit switch for the windlass and DO motor a bit up to the anchor. It always helps to have an anchor float out so you can "aim" at the anchor... since the boat will be yawing in heavier winds. My windlass/ roller configuration wants a pretty straight pull on the anchor and within a few degrees in addition to giving the boat way as noted above, it also pulls the bow toward the anchor... trying to align the boat with the direction of the chain... which it does. Keep the helm centered when you retrieve the anchor... especially when you are at the bow and no one is at the helm.

BTW Shiva has a Mawell VWC1100 and weighs about 16K. We use all chain and do use the rope qypsy to hall up a bosun. This is a very handy feature in having an electric windlass with a chain AND rope gyspsy. I've consider using it to haul up the 440 SF main.... as I always need to do the last 10 ft with a winch.

Love the windlass... completely essentially on a crusing boat. In fact it is FAR EASIER to anchor then to deal with a pick-up mooring!.. especially in winds above 15 knots. Ity's amazing how fast the bow can blow off when you try to snag a pick up buoy when it is windy... Or try to release a loop on the bow cleat in a bit of a blow without removing tension by motoring into the wind. You think these things through when you singlehand.

Dontcha?

jef
sv shiva

JusDreaming · 06-06-2007, 12:49

defjef
I should be more clear, I basically do the same thing. The lofrans actually has a switch that intermittently cuts on and off. And does what you explained with the catenary. But in windy conditions it does have enough ass to pull the boat without throwing the breaker. I realize it is not good for the windless

but in some cases I had no choice.
Like yours' the lofrans has the rope gypsy also and I agree that it is very nice way to hoist my large ass up the mast. And I have used it for raising the main sail. At least the last 10 feet or so.