Anchoring 32' Sloop

[drdoyle]

I would think that 1/2 inch 3 strand is too small in diameter. I'm sure it has enough tensile strength in new condition, but it would loose strength quickly if chaffeed or from UV exposure. I would choose 3/4 inch as a minimum and 1 inch for a storm anchor. Use 10 feet of 3/8 stainless steel chaine between the anchor ane line. For your small vessel there are some stainless steel manta/bruce/claw style anchors available on Amazon and ebay that are quite nice. About 10kg should work for you. The Fortress anchors are very good too.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Another way to think about this is, considering weight, where would you put 7.5 lbs. Into the anchor or the chain?
1/4" chain and 33 lb anchor or
5/16" chain and 27 lb anchor?

I would say the later.

The weight of the chain doesn't help much, but the weight of the anchor does - better holding and faster setting.

On my boat I have installed a windlass (Lewmar Pro 1000) farther aft than normally seen. I am using all chain - 1.4" G4 -which at 2600 lbs is just about as strong as 3/8 BBB which is grade 30 @ 2650 lbs. The chain drops to an area under the V-berth. I carry 225 feet with the option to add a rope rode if ever necessary. The chain weighs 168 lbs. The main anchor is a Rocna 15 (33 lbs). The anchor is self launching on my bow roller so I can drop it from the helm if I wish.

If for some reason the anchor doesn't set you have to re-set it, possibly several times. Without a windlass there may come a time when you decide it is good enough as hauling it in to try again is a lot of work. With a windlass it is easy to continue until you have a good set.

An all chain rode is self stowing in the locker, unlike a rope/chain combination. There is not a chain/rope splice to chafe over time.

Strength of chain is important but with all chain a snubber is essential, both for stretch and to keep the load off of the windlass.

Manual windlasses are very slow.

[David Mathis]

Our ground tackle is similar to yours, just a little larger due to the larger boat. We have a 25 pound Danforth for mud and a 44 Bruce, sharpened to improve penetration in hard sand, for everything else. The Danforth has only 15' of 5/16 chain while the Bruce has about 30' of the same. We've been in a few storms, some nasty but no hurricanes, and the chosen anchor has always held. However, they can really dig deep after a serious blow and can be difficult to retrieve. If you're in an area with coral or littered with junk, a longer chain would be recommended but the lengths we have continue to work after many years of cruising. We've found no need to lengthen either chain. Your statement of the catenary straightening during the high winds and waves experienced during storms is correct. A snubber helps but the shock is still more substantial than if you had a long length of non-chain rode. As to three strand vs double braid or eight plait, a few years ago I was persuaded to buy the double braid as the three strand was obsolete and the new rode was so much better that it would hold better, allow the anchor to penetrate deeper, be easier to retrieve, last longer, and many other reasons. No difference was noticed other than the purchase price. It went with the boat when it was sold. The new boat has 200' of 9/16" three strand. As to a windlass, follow the manufacturer's recommendation. You don't appreciate the convenience until you have one. It's been many years since I've pulled an anchor on anything larger than a dingy.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Yesterday I read about a guy who removed 200 feet of rusty chain and found the bow rose by 3".

That sounds like my boat, and I'd rather not relocate the waterline.

So it needs to be a compromize, perhaps 80' of chain as a starter.

I expect Jim has a bigger boat and he has a windlass.

Don I believe you said that you don't and you have a big 35 lb anchor. What is your experience with deployment and hauling that additional 100' of chain?

I really am reluctant to turn this operarion into an unpleasant experience that requires me to fit an electric windlass.

I have a Danforth 20H and a couple of 12Hs. I am always anchored bow and stern in my area and I know that is a bit unusual. The 20H is overkill for me and I often use the 12H as it is plenty of holding power for my 8000 lb boat, sets quickly, is lighter, fits better on the bow and I am often in anchorages protected from strong winds and swell. Hauling up the chain and anchor is not a big problem, ONCE THE ANCHOR IS FREE! Getting a well set Danforth out is what burns more of the calories for me. If I am in 25' of water I am lifting about 25 lb of chain and 20 lb of anchor; not too bad. I think your concerns boil down to what kind of anchoring conditions are you expecting in the near future? If the 80 feet gives you the chafe protection you need and adequate scope then you could go with that for now and then shackle on more when you need it. The shackle may not go over the gypsy though so when you get to it you may need to lift it over... (better to use a Prusik loop to lift it over, not fingers IMO) As far as chain, the super duper 1/4" is fine for my boat and may be fine for yours as well. I had in my own mind figured that once past 10,000 lb displacement, the 5/16" was the preferred choice.

[rgleason]

Don Cl
Thank you. I hope I won't need a windlass, and I am going to take it one step at a time with an overall plan. From your experience with longer chain, I think I will be possible. I should probably use our danforth!

Dave Mathias
Thanks. Your use of chain parallels ours. I know nothing about windlasses dont want the weight, but can guess how you can get hooked on them.
I was advised by a helpful rope manfacturer to avoid double braid nylon because it gets stiff and does not settle in the locker. He suggested 3 strand or 8-plait which is best.

Tomorrow I am going to try to Summarize what I have learned with some links, and the overall plan.

Mitiempo
Thanks for sharing. Unfortunately I have a water tank under the V. If I need to I can remove it, so this will be a staged process as I make changes.
You make good points about a manual windlass.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Don Cl
From your experience with longer chain, I think I will be possible. I should probably use our danforth!

While I can certainly recommend the Danforth for one direction pull in mud and sand, I can't recommend it if it is the only anchor down and you might be swinging around on it; it can get pulled out and may or may not re-set well. I wouldn't bet on it. If I was going around the world I might prefer a smorgasbord of anchors to choose from depending on bottom conditions.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Don Cl
Thank you. I hope I won't need a windlass, and I am going to take it one step at a time with an overall plan. From your experience with longer chain, I think I will be possible. I should probably use our danforth!

Dave Mathias
Thanks. Your use of chain parallels ours. I know nothing about windlasses dont want the weight, but can guess how you can get hooked on them.
I was advised by a helpful rope manfacturer to avoid double braid nylon because it gets stiff and does not settle in the locker. He suggested 3 strand or 8-plait which is best.

Tomorrow I am going to try to Summarize what I have learned with some links, and the overall plan.

Mitiempo
Thanks for sharing. Unfortunately I have a water tank under the V. If I need to I can remove it, so this will be a staged process as I make changes.
You make good points about a manual windlass.

I look at a good anchoring system as my insurance policy. It is a system and all items have to work.

I also had a water tank under the V-berth but removed it.

As Don posted a Danforth has its uses - stern anchor or kedge for example. But makes a lousy main anchor. Doesn't reset well after a tide change and can foul easily. A better choice for the main anchor is a new gen model - eg Rocna, Spade, Mantus, Vulcan.

[rslifkin]

Double braid is ok if you're hand hauling, but it's less stretchy than 3 strand or 8 plait. And you can't just splice it to chain, plus it doesn't work in a windlass.



Personally, I consider a reasonably fast windlass to be a safety benefit, although not necessarily a requirement on a smaller boat. You're much more likely to move when the situation suggests you should rather than saying "it'll probably be fine" if you can pull the anchor up faster and more easily.

[Don C L]

Here's a quick video of my friend on his Cheoy Lee Luders 30 sailing along doing 7 knots while he is on the bow. He has about 50 feet of 5/16" chain in the bow and he has a manual windlass up there too. So one could make the argument that the bow does tend to get more buried, which may be more of a problem going downwind... actually probably WILL be...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMgPor_vQKA

[ScottMeilicke]

On our previous boat, 30,000lb displacement, we had 260’ of chain and 150’ of Yale tenex as a primary, and 50’ chain plus 300’ of tenex as our secondary. I chose tenex for the abrasion resistance of the coating, and for the better strength of polyester vs nylon. We always used snubbers, even with a lot of polyester out.

We used a thimble and shackle to attach the chain and tenex. When we had all of the chain and some of the tenex out, I had to do a bit of a dance to get the thimble around the windlass. Our horizontal windlass had a drum for the rope on one side, and a chain gypsy on the other. As we hauled up, when the thimble got close to the drum, I connected a snubber to the chain and then cleated it off. I would release the tension on the tenex, put on a second snubber with a rolling hitch on the chain, and the other end to the now free drum on the windlass. Then I could haul in the rode enough with the second snubber to get the chain around the gypsy, release both snubbers and pull in the anchor.

Our first boat didn’t have much chain, so to keep it from dancing around the anchorage in a light and variable winds and nearly hitting the all chain boats, I used a kellet. That allowed us to ride at anchor similarly to the all chain boats, but then lifted out of the way in higher winds. It worked great, and I would definitely use that system again when not worried about chafe, or perhaps with a modest amount of chain plus tenex.

[ScottMeilicke]

Whoops - I meant Yalex, not tenex above.

[rgleason]

Found in this CF Thread Post #50 -Who is Richard MacF - Post by MathiasW

Minimally required anchor chain length - Scroll Down to the decision diagram.

https://anchorchaincalculator.com/

This great calculator has helped me understand a little about the dynamics.
1. How to measure the actual area of rigging for the purpose of this app?
2. What the typical Vessel horizontal velocity settings would be for various size waves (say 2', 4', 6', 10')
3. What constitutes an excellent snubber and a quality snubber. What characteristics are you looking for?
4. I know the app does not calculate chain-rope, but what happens with such a system? I wish this was a selection in the app.
5. Also, if an anchor rode is changed from nylon to polyester 8-plait what would change?
6. The calculator seems to account for most of the forces and the loads at the anchor seem to be lower than I expected even at 50 knots, somewhere around 800lbs. Why when ABYC has much higher wind loads only!!

[rgleason]

Scott thank you for your great contribution, including the windlass dance!
This is an excellent addition to the possible cordage for ground tackle.
https://www.yalecordage.com/product/yalex/

dia wgt min.BrkStr maxWL
1/2 8.4 13,833 3,074
9/16 10.3 16,974 3,772
5/8 11.6 18,810 4,180
3/4 15.5 24,300 5,400

[rgleason]

@ScottMeliche
Would you use Yalex 12-plait polyester again? (or Sampson Tenx 12 plait).

Was the lesser amount of stretch more appropriate than a nylon rode when lots of scope was out? (IE did you notice less surging and sailing?)

You say that you still used a snubber. Whet was it? How did you change the snubber between a long and a short rode?

Why did you use a thimble and shackle for connections? Was it to make a sronger more reliable connection than a chain splice?

Would you have preferred 8-plait polyester with the abrasion resistant coating?

How much difference does the abrasion resistanct coating make?

Would you use 8-plait polyester with no abrasion resistant coating because polyester is inherently abrasion resistant anyway?

[rgleason]

Correction polyester is inherently more abrasion resistant than nylon.
Also it does not loose 15% strength when wet like nylon.