Anchoring Protocol revised

[Scottuk]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

If he laid out significantly more rode than everyone else, but it was still within reason (~7:1), then it might be legit that he can claim first setting privileges. But if he’s got out way too much, like 10+:1 or something (outside of storm conditions), then forget it. His problem.


If you’re saying he was anchored differently, like perhaps with two anchors or something, which prevented him from moving with the crowd, then I’d say it was his problem. Even if he was the very first one in, if everyone else is anchored to one hook, I’d say it was his responsibility to change.

I do not agree with the two points listed above. It should not matter rode length or anchoring system, if you are there first it is your option and, though it might be considered rude, others need to work around the person who is there first.


It appears to me the boat in question might have let out more rode/chain. If that is the case then it would have changed their anchoring and they would be liable to all other boats anchored prior to letting out more scope.

[thinwater]

It's not too hard to google the admiralty law on this.

• The guy who is there first has the right to a clear berth. Scope is his choice. You need to give him what ever room he needs, whether or not you consider his scope excessive. Although there is probably no case law, lying to two anchors is probably his choice. He can anchor fore-aft, which is common practice by some, and that too is his choice. If anyone can find case law counter to this, please post it.
• Once he begins to drag, he is no longer anchored; he needs to keep clear. In reality, once things start to go bump, keeping clear is difficult.
• Like other sailing rules, everyone has a responsibility to take actions needed to avoid collisions. Many possibilities, but not really enough information for me to comment. The best choice may be fenders, but profanity is not a solution, and neither is arguing fault. At this point, all parties have responsibilities.

Not simple:


* It is not clear that the first boat dragged. If not, he has the primary right, though with some responsibility to adjust as practical. However, I would strongly argue that if my anchor has been down for days, lifting it will only make it less secure.
* The "too long scope" argument has some validity from a rudeness perspective, but unless it was >15:1 I can't see any relevance to a legal argument. There is some case law that he should have informed the other boats they were inside his swing circle, but the counter argument is that there is zero chance they would have listened. They also could have asked.


If I understood him correctly, ScottUK brought up an interesting point. If a boat increases scope, he "changes his berth" and is in some sense, is no longer the first boat there. In effect, he re-anchored when he changed the rode length. I've never seen case law on that one.

[Don C L]

Unfortunately you can't rely on any protocol to keep anyone safe in an anchorage.You never know who is coming in and what level of skill they have; you have to be ready, as Ken says, to do whatever is needed to keep your own boat safe. If another boat is a hazard, you have to get away from it. Letting out way more scope may be one way, or be sure you are ready to jettison your own anchor rode, buoy it and come back for it later, if you cannot safely move up to retrieve your anchor. Then, if you don't have an adequate alternate anchor and rode ready, you'll need to clear out. Certainly you'll have every right to be furious, but being right doesn't protect you and your boat.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by thinwater

It's not too hard to google the admiralty law on this.

...provided one knows there might be applicable admiralty law to begin with.

One relevant snippet, albeit from 1903 and so possibly modified:

U.S. Admiralty Court, in the Juniata decision (no. 124-5861), found that A Vessel shall be found at fault if it…anchors so close to another vessel as to foul her when swinging, or if it fails to shift anchorage when dragging dangerously close to another anchored vessel. Furthermore, the vessel that anchored first shall warn the one who anchored last that the berth chosen will foul the former’s berth.

[thinwater]

In the admiralty law cases, typically these are large vessels and dragging was obvious and not contested.


In recreational cases in crowded harbors, really proving who dragged or swung into whom is bound to be a hornets nest. GPS has limitations and it might be considered normal for anchors to move some distance, up to 20 feet or so (or rather good seamanship would assume this is not unlikely), and exact rode lengths will not be known. There is no agreed upon standard for scope (at least not on a forum, and so not in a courtroom). The people involved may feel sure of the facts, but would the judge?



Thus I'm pretty sure this is just between insurance companies. A civil court would probably split it down the middle, and so might an admiralty court, lacking solid evidence.

[thinwater]

"Furthermore, the vessel that anchored first shall warn the one who anchored last that the berth chosen will foul the former’s berth."


My understanding is that this is paraphrased from a Pardey book and that this admonishment did not exist in the actual ruling. It is oft quoted from that book, but never from the source. I have not been able to find it.


This did come from that ruling:


Juniata 124 F. 861 US Admiralty Court, E.D. Virginia, 1903 (in part)
"A ‘safe berth‘ should not be construed to mean one from which probable accident might not arise, but ample space; that is, taking into consideration all the exigencies likely to arise, either by reason of the character of the harbor, the conditions of the weather, and the season of the year, no danger of collision would arise, and close calculations should not be made, and risks run in giving room; doubts should be solved with a view of securing safety, having in view the possible contingencies that might arise, making it necessary for each vessel to take greater space than was apparently required at the moment; and particularly is this true where amply anchorage space existed, as it did on this occasion."



The second problem with this duty is that it changes as the wind shifts.


Complicated.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Scottuk

I do not agree with the two points listed above. It should not matter rode length or anchoring system, if you are there first it is your option and, though it might be considered rude, others need to work around the person who is there first.

It appears to me the boat in question might have let out more rode/chain. If that is the case then it would have changed their anchoring and they would be liable to all other boats anchored prior to letting out more scope.

Well, you have the right to be wrong .

Actually, I don’t really disagree — in theory. But until everyone is stretched out, it is often impossible to know how much rode others have out when you come into the anchorage. You can ask — and I try to do so — but this is often not possible. So from there all you can do is set out a reasonable length based on the anchorage, what you can glean from other boats, and the expected conditions. If someone has set out way more rode than is reasonable, you probably only learn once it starts to blow hard.

If you’re the lone boat anchored weirdly, with every else doing something else, I don’t think it is reasonable to say everyone else should change — even if you are the first one in the anchorage.

[foggysail]

WOW!!!! Crowded harbors and recommended scope of ~7?

You will not be able to do that around here (most of Massachusetts harbors) without banging into somebody else. 😡

[Steve Bedford]

After reading all of the responses, I will clarify.
1. Winds were 40-50 mph.
2. Waves were rolling in from the Med at about 5-6 feet.
3. We have no idea if the boat in question was there first or for that matter 3 days. It is what he “told us.”
4. We did take all appropriate measures to protect our vessel, vessels around us, and persons. We had our engine on for hours and motored within our scope range according to natural boat position to keep pressure off our set anchor when it really blew. We had three up on deck all night, one at helm, one at bow, one at stern. A fourth was at the nav station watching for any tracking outside the scope area.
5. The boat in question had only one anchor out. No one had a second anchor deployed.
6. “The boat was acting differently than others.” While other monohulled vessels reacted the same way to the wind direction and wave action, this boat was totally different. Example, we all pointed one direction off our bow, he was sideways to the direction and moving sideways. When we were all rocking sideways, that boat was moving forward or aft by bow or stern. When we were all straining in one direction with the wind, he is doing circles. A few different actions, could be explained. Three hours of vastly different actions tells me something else. No other boats seemed to be close enough to endanger other boats...except this one. This boat hit one and almost hit three more. Would have hit some had it not been the action of crew on deck.
7. Sorry, no one in that anchorage thought he was not at fault. From what I could see, all other boats were taking appropriate action. He was not. We believe he was dragging and causing problems and tried to hide behind, “I was here first.”

Steve.

[noelex 77]

Thanks for the example.

If you have good anchoring gear, other boats dragging is the greatest risk.

This can be a nightmare situation. A boat drags, hits your boat, causing damage. The anchor rodes tangle, upsetting your anchor and with the added load you both start to drag, spiralling downwind. I have seen three boats tangled like this. Nightmare.

It is not clear in this case if the offending boat is dragging (which seems likely) or just has an inappropriately long scope, but in either case forget admiralty law. Just get out of there as quickly as possible, especially with a beligerent neighbour. With modern electric anchor winches it takes little effort to re-anchor.

[mikedefieslife]

It’s the med. I’ve seen many an anchor literally just touch the bottom and the captain and crew head to shore for lunch. Anchorages are small and crowded. You will nearly always be in someones swing circle even if you weren’t when you arrived , another 5 boats will anchor within yours.

[hellosailor]

As thinwater said.

But the guy was FOS, and at that point you can't engage in argument or logic with him. So you avoid collision, as everyone is responsible to do. And if you want to swim out and tear out one of his through-hulls quietly and sink him the next night, you're entitled to do that as well.

If you aren't that enthusiastic about passing on the karma, perhaps you could ask the local uniforms to do a safety inspection of the vessel, as a courtesy, after letting them know there's a loose cannon in the harbor.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by svquintana

The "rules" of anchoring are rules of courtesy, not hard and fast "laws"; and common courtesy, (and common sense), is only common to those in the know.

In the end, as with many things, the most belligerent, and often least knowledgeable, will get their way.

There's seldom a satisfactory way to deal with these people, especially when moving is not an option.

This sort of thing happens, but not that often. Try to forget it, and enjoy the rest of your holiday.

Cheers.
Paul.

Good post.


There is just no feasible way to insist on any rights you might have, in an anchoring dispute, even if you have them.


When things get like this, you just have to move, or if you can't move, work something out with the disgruntled neighbor, and try to forget about it.

[JPA Cate]

We, too, have been told we were dragging, when it was the boat dragging down onto us. It is remarkably frustrating! Jim said we couldn't drag upwind, but I don't think the woman got it.

The deal is, when someone is behaving in a belligerent, intransigent fashion, there is often no reasoning with them, and you still have the duty to avoid a collision. One good deal is to up anchor move out of the way and let them drag past you, but not always possible. Fenders and boat hook to fend them off. Not your body.

He may have been on rope rode; he may have had far too much rode out, and during the previous days had moved all around on his chain; he may have had an inadequate anchor. (I see the OP is an anchor advertiser.) The deal is that 0 dark thirty, all you can really take responsibility for is your own vessel and her actions, in as humane a way as possible for yourselves and all the other people in the anchorage.... It's not fair, and you can fantasize about reasoning so astutely with the guy that he moves and re-anchors all you want, but your actions needs must be to get out of his way...however you find you can do that.

Silly blighter!

Ann

[Pete7]

I have merged two separate threads together, so some of the posts may not follow in the original order they were posted in. I am sure you will work it out.

Pete