Anchoring Protocol revised

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by thinwater

However, that is NOT what the law says. You need provide a clear berth for any vessel that was there before you. Period. The only exceptions seem to be if you drag or otherwise re-anchor (increasing scope, for example, is re-anchoring).


There is always the general duty clause that says you should do what you can to avoid collision, but that is secondary.


Complicated. If it were me I would simply add a light kellet, which solves the problem. Easily done. But for the person anchored with chain to blame-shift is rather like claiming the "rule of tonage" when you are 5 feet longer. It's a really weak claim.

I’m not sure what “blame shift” means here. And I don’t think my comments contravene the provision to provide “a clear berth.” That is what every competent cruiser does. But in the real anchoring world, when you come into a busy anchorage you do your best to fit into the existing pattern. you can try and talk to people there, but that is not always possible. So you make a determination based on what you can observe, and what the standard scope should be.

If I get it wrong, as I might in Don’s example, I better change once it becomes clear I am out of step. In the case of the OP, if there is one boat out of all the rest who, with a change in wind or current, is clearly out of synch, then I say it is their responsibility to change if they can.

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by thinwater

However, that is NOT what the law says. You need provide a clear berth for any vessel that was there before you. Period. The only exceptions seem to be if you drag or otherwise re-anchor (increasing scope, for example, is re-anchoring).


There is always the general duty clause that says you should do what you can to avoid collision, but that is secondary.


Complicated. If it were me I would simply add a light kellet, which solves the problem. Easily done. But for the person anchored with chain to blame-shift is rather like claiming the "rule of tonage" when you are 5 feet longer. It's a really weak claim.

Where did you find that law? Coast Guard Rule 30 (Navigation Rules, International-Inland) for anchored vessels and vessels aground only addresses lights

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by rabbi

ROFL

Based on these assumptions (1:7, swing circles not touching each other) you'll never drop anchor in the western Med between May and September at least.
If you do find such a spot it will last less than ten minutes before someone will park their charter boat 10m away with a 1:2 scope.

Have heard from several long term Med cruisers that claim one can always find places to anchor and avoid the crowds. Of course that means you won't be anchored right in front of the bar at the popular beach resorts but then that would be fine for me.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I’m not sure what “blame shift” means here. And I don’t think my comments contravene the provision to provide “a clear berth.” That is what every competent cruiser does. But in the real anchoring world, when you come into a busy anchorage you do your best to fit into the existing pattern. you can try and talk to people there, but that is not always possible. So you make a determination based on what you can observe, and what the standard scope should be.

If I get it wrong, as I might in Don’s example, I better change once it becomes clear I am out of step. In the case of the OP, if there is one boat out of all the rest who, with a change in wind or current, is clearly out of synch, then I say it is their responsibility to change if they can.

I didn't mean to seem argumentative. This is a forum and sometimes things come out wrong. I just meant it to be a friendly conversation about how weird the situation can be and how strict interpretation of the law and practicality are at odds. I've certainly anchored with overlap many times. That is reality some places.



Seriously, marine law makes no allowance for crowding. You need to provide a clear berth. For commercial shipping, that may mean waiting offshore. Happens all the time. The case law does not define what clear berth makes, other than to say all factors must be considered, including some safety factor. It never specifically talks about swing circles or differences in motion. Just "all factors." By implication, they are allowable if a collision does not result. There is some fuzz in there.



When I have anchored with all-rope (I've also used all-chain) in tight quarters the simple solution has been to lash ~ 15 feet of chain bundled in loops to the rope as a kellet. It is easier to handle than a lump iron. Heck, it will feed over the roller and recover over the roller. No problem at all. But I think it falls short of being my responsibility. It is simply practical and polite.



I'm not sure if yawing, due to instability, is different. Yawing suggests that the boat is not well moored, whether rope or chain. Separate subject.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

+1 on this too

I get it that in deep anchorages the old 5 or 7:1 rule can be relaxed, but for most anchorages in the under 30’ range, I would only shorten rode if I was very certain of the forecast. And since forecasts are rarely good out past three days, I would only do this for a short-term stay.

No matter how good your anchor is, and some are better than others, it’s still only a pointy hunk of metal without adequate scope.

Exactly. Like almost all things boaty, the correct answer is, it depends. In a well sheltered harbor, with good weather, good holding, all chain and not anchoring overnight I can live with short scope but never, never less than 3/1 but would prefer 5/1. If the above conditions aren't in effect and I can't put out 5/1 or better I'll find another spot.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by foggysail

I also do my boating in Massachusetts where there are open harbors where you can have a scope of 20 if desired such as Boston away from the crowds. Then there are places such as Cuttyhunk or Lake Tashmo both small, frequently very crowded and you have to compromise to either anchor or get a mooring if available.

Your statement on safety should be a concern to everyone. If your anchor cannot provide you with comfort on shorter scopes than obviously you should avoid those situations.

I live about a mile from Lake Tashmoo, have anchored a few times and had friends come through and anchor there. If you go to the south end of the harbor, past the town dock you can almost always find enough room to anchor with good scope.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Seems like very poor seamanship to me and there is so much of it in these days of anyone with a pulse being able to get a boat.

One of my favorite rants and not very popular with the anti-nanny state crowd.

I find it completely insane that one can't drive a scooter 30 mph on a public road without a license but anyone with the money could buy a Fountain, Cigarette or similar that will go 130 and hit the water without license or even a day of previous boating experience. NOTE: There are one or two states where this does not apply and a license is now required.

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by skipmac

I live about a mile from Lake Tashmoo, have anchored a few times and had friends come through and anchor there. If you go to the south end of the harbor, past the town dock you can almost always find enough room to anchor with good scope.

I thought that the new anchoring restrictions prohibited anchoring where you describe. Am I incorrect on that?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I didn't mean to seem argumentative. This is a forum and sometimes things come out wrong. I just meant it to be a friendly conversation about how weird the situation can be and how strict interpretation of the law and practicality are at odds. I've certainly anchored with overlap many times. That is reality some places.

Seriously, marine law makes no allowance for crowding. You need to provide a clear berth. For commercial shipping, that may mean waiting offshore. Happens all the time. The case law does not define what clear berth makes, other than to say all factors must be considered, including some safety factor. It never specifically talks about swing circles or differences in motion. Just "all factors." By implication, they are allowable if a collision does not result. There is some fuzz in there.

When I have anchored with all-rope (I've also used all-chain) in tight quarters the simple solution has been to lash ~ 15 feet of chain bundled in loops to the rope as a kellet. It is easier to handle than a lump iron. Heck, it will feed over the roller and recover over the roller. No problem at all. But I think it falls short of being my responsibility. It is simply practical and polite.

I'm not sure if yawing, due to instability, is different. Yawing suggests that the boat is not well moored, whether rope or chain. Separate subject.

Sorry Thin, I didn’t mean to come across as argumentative either. I was taking your comments seriously, and just pointing out that I don’t think I was suggesting anything that would contravene what you quote as maritime law.

I’m not trying to make make an all-chain vs rope rode argument — not at all. When the wind blows or the current moves, we all move in more or less the same way — or we should. You make allowances for rope vs chain when making your initial determination, hopefully anchoring next to like.

My only comment regarding the OP’s situation is that if there is one boat out of the group that is moving significantly differently so as to risk damaging others, then it is common courtesy and common sense, that THEY should do something, regardless of who was first. Of course, not everyone accepts their responsibilities. And in the end, it is everyone’s responsibility to avoid collusion.

[zboss]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Space is nice, but you don't always get it.

And that is assuming that all boat behave the same, which we all know they don't. Behavior of different kinds of boats at anchor is one of those things that none of the sailing schools discuss. So even if you do get space for something like 7:1 that's no guarantee that you won't make contact with other boats that share some of your swing radius.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by foggysail

I thought that the new anchoring restrictions prohibited anchoring where you describe. Am I incorrect on that?

Well to be honest, the latest policy seems to change depending on the day of the week and who you ask. Basically clear as mud.

I finally went by and talked to John Crocker, the harbor master and got him to draw it out on a chart. I'll have to go dig it out to get all the details exactly correct but as well as I can recall, there's a big place in the middle that is banned and an area on the very north end that's banned.

Draw a line from just south of the town dock more or less west across Tashmoo to mark the southern boundary of the no middle anchoring zone. Another line across the harbor about 300 yards north of that marks the northern boundary. You can anchor south of that or north of it but I think there's also another area farther north that is also a no go.

If' you're going to be there I'll see if I can find my little drawing and can scan it and post or email you a copy.

You do know about the dredging screwup that created a shallow spot in the entrance?

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by foggysail

I thought that the new anchoring restrictions prohibited anchoring where you describe. Am I incorrect on that?

OK, found my little, more or less official, sketch chart. The no go zone in the middle is bounded on the north by a line at roughly 41 degrees, 27.6 minutes, on the south a line at 41 degrees, 27.13 minutes. South of there is OK. North of there is OK except for a circular area of eel grass about 300 yds diameter from the west bank out to the main channel.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Have heard from several long term Med cruisers that claim one can always find places to anchor and avoid the crowds. Of course that means you won't be anchored right in front of the bar at the popular beach resorts but then that would be fine for me.

We really try to stay away from the crowd but room for 1:7 and no neighbor often means lots of luck, or its a spot with little or no protection often combined with deep water.
Anything offering shelter _and_ a bar is typically packed.

At least in the Spanish and Italian islands, easier in Greece. Don't know about eastern Med.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by rabbi

We really try to stay away from the crowd but room for 1:7 and no neighbor often means lots of luck, or its a spot with little or no protection often combined with deep water.
Anything offering shelter _and_ a bar is typically packed.

At least in the Spanish and Italian islands, easier in Greece. Don't know about eastern Med.

As noted, all my info is second hand so take whatever I say with a grain of salt. With an oversized anchor and 3/8" chain I could live comfortably with 5:1 with a good bottom and no Mistral or any of the other nasty Med winds expected.

Less than 5:1 for me is day anchorage only, except of course in a case of dire distress.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by rabbi

We really try to stay away from the crowd but room for 1:7 and no neighbor often means lots of luck, or its a spot with little or no protection often combined with deep water.
Anything offering shelter _and_ a bar is typically packed

Not hard to find anchorages like that up here in Newfoundland. But I did spend a few years in the Thousand Islands … way too packed for my liking, but good training for ‘parking lot’ anchoring.