Anchoring too close to other boats?

[tarian]

Yup to close with all that chain out if you start to swing in bad conditions you may find a nice ball of wool tangle

4:1 Is a plenty with good anchor
I have used my Rocna on 4:1 in 35knots constant not a problem over night
Other Anchors out there

But you have admitted a mistake , it would have then been polite and good friendly attitude to re anchor as you knew it was close.
But thats me no problem about saying no worries and moving on putting my hands up

[tarian]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Not necessarily.




The key to happy anchoring in crowded anchorages is to be relaxed, friendly, and flexible. Lock the "bitch wings" up in a locker somewhere. Keeping in mind that hardly any serious damage or danger happens from boats swinging together or getting their anchor chains twisted up or whatever. Put some fenders out if you are too worried, or move yourself. The key thing to be careful about is that no one drags into you, so DO pay attention to who is anchored upwind of you, and how they did it, and whether or not they are even very close or not.


I would anchor next to the OP any day.

Big D you attitude is comendable but it does not happen that way , plenty times 3 and more boats get their chain snagged , boats drag towards each other , people get stressed, remember people have paid a lot of money for their pride and joy , some others are not so equiped with dealing with stressful situations , some people might need to move on but cannot as there tangled.

Yes it is rare but it can be even rarer if good sensible anchoring and good vibes to the rest, the OP has admitted he was probabaly to close the tidal range I suspect to be minimal so 150ft was Overkill and could !! cause a problem , which it did not in this case.
But I do not park my Car in a parking lot full of old bangers and badly parked cars all damaged with no driving sense from those going in , Why would I do this with my even more expensive boat

[noelex 77]

Firstly, thanks for starting the thread, Chotu. Analysing mistakes is a great way to learn so it is appreciated when people are prepared to confess to these.

The suggestion that the scope could have been safely reduced is by far the best solution. Holding increases with scope, but having an anchoring system that you have confidence in at shorter scopes in settled weather, or medium scopes in heavy weather, makes a huge difference to the possibilities available, as this example illustrates.

The next question raised is whether or not 20 feet is too close. There seems to be some difference of opinion here. Well, naturally it depends on conditions, whether the boats have same swing characteristics, scope, etc etc. But in general I think it too close.

Consider just one example. I am the boat behind you anchored at 5:1 and my bow roller is about 5 feet above the waterline. If conditions strengthen such that that my chain is stretched reasonably tight (so that the catenary effectively disappears) my chain will hit your boat. At 20 feet from my bow my chain will still be about half a foot above the water so it will hit your stern! For a boat with lesser freeboard the height will be less, but even if the chain clears your stern there is still your rudder dangling well below.

Swinging into the chain particularly with your rudder will ruin your entire day.

It does not sound like conditions were strong enough to stretch out the chain, but if winds are increasing and storms forecast, stretching out the chain would seem a possibility that is worth allowing for.

With good judgment and equipment there is no need for the type of situation pictured below:

[bensolomon]

Chotu,

Just pull in some anchor chain. You only need 100 feet (5:1 plus bow to waterline).

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Sparx

I am leaving New England where 20 feet between boats is sometimes fine and normal in crowded anchorages. I always try to keep my scope similar to the adjacent boats in these situations.

150 feet of chain in 18 ft of water is at least 50 feet more than I would have used. Shortening up would solve the problem.

My thought also. cutting back on the chain 20' would hurt nothing scope wise and improve his clearance. In 18' of water he could reduce it more.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Chotu

This should be an interesting thread.

I dropped anchor in a fairly crowded harbor 3 days ago. We were tired from the sail and the girlfriend was paying out the chain while I kept the boat on station.

Apparently it wasn't as payed out as I had thought. I let the boat drift back a bit to pay out the proper scope and we ended up a bit closer to another boat than I had anticipated. I guess it wasn't payed out all the way when I thought it was.

Now with the anchor holding well we are just a bit closer than I had planned to the other boat.

As the winds are increasing and changing through storms apparently our chain was straightened out even more putting us even closer to this guy.

I can't be more than 20 feet off his bow now if winds are lining up just wrong. Other times, everything is ok. Way too close for good seamanship. Yet, we won't ever touch. Currently have 150ft of chain out in 18ft of water.

It's night time right now and the winds are lining up just wrong. It appears he's asleep. I can't see well enough to move. Daytime? I would have already moved.

So does anyone think it's ok to just stay in this configuration for the night? How about staying like this for as long as we're here?

What are the opinions?

I'm a jerk who anchored too close. Unintentionally, but still a jerk.

On the other side, a different boat was too close to him too. The dinghy from that other boat was within 2ft of touching his boat. He can't be pleased with anything about this situation.

Thoughts?

You have deployed an 8.33 rode ratio. Just pull in 20 feet and your at 7.22 ratio which is still a considerable amount unless you are expecting really adverse conditions. Your anchor rode angle and holding power gained by a modest change in rode ratio is rather small once you get upwards to seven to one.
So consider 25 feet less rode to stand off your neighbors.

Of course you have to give consideration how all the other adjacent boats will set when and if the wind shifts. References, link and image:

https://www.sailmagazine.com/cruisin...ree-dimensions

[kas_1611]

Sometimes it happens, been there done that and got the t-shirt Anyone who says they've never ended up laying too close for comfort is either a liar or an armchair sailor.

It's one of the things about anchoring. You come in and have to guess where the other people's anchors are and how much scope they might have out. You pick your spot, drop astern and to the side of a boat and think you are ok only to find the wind shifts and he's right on top of you or vice versa as the other guys anchor wasn't where you thought it was or he is on rope not chain or has a way different swing pattern to you or has set a Bahamian Moor rather than a single swing anchor or any of a myriad of other reasons (including Mr Sod's Law).

In light winds I can almost guarantee my anchor will be right underneath me regardless of how much scope I've put out. My boat just has a propensity to spring back over the anchor when we let the revs off and sit there unless there's a breeze, even then she'll often swing just around the vertical chain (sometimes in a complete circle) but that will give no indication of the full swinging circle.

If you'd come in, shown good anchoring technique, applied a decent amount of reverse to set the hook and visibly checked you weren't moving then I might be OK with you half a boat length away assuming we were swinging in a similar manner. Especially in a tight anchorage. If you waved and asked then we could have discussed relative anchor positions and scopes and maybe decided that for you to take in 20 or 30ft (10m) would make it much more comfortable for us both then I'd definitely feel happier.

In the Med where tides are next to nothing 150ft in 18ft of water (45.7m in 5.5m) is excessive. In that depth I'd be dropping 25m of chain (4:1 (plus roller height*2)) not nearly 8:1 as you have out (assuming 1.5m bow roller height). If stronger winds were expected 5:1 would be just over 30m or 100ft. Simplest solution to the problem, for me, would be to pick up at least 10m/30ft of chain and leave yourself a boat length clear.

If you'd come in like an idiot, dropped the hook while still going forward, slammed a bit of reverse, stopped without checking the set, killed the engine and cracked open the gin then I'd be in the dinghy coming to ask you to move as you'd be way too close for my comfort.

Sometimes the simple things; popping out the fenders, asking the other boat if they are OK, admitting you are a wee bit closer than planned etc can turn a potentially stressful situation into a much more relaxed one.

Fair play to you for admitting to this and for sharing with the collective though. Only by admitting our cock ups do we learn from them and we've all made cock ups

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Montanan

You have deployed an 8.33 rode ratio.

You need to add in the bow roller height from the waterline to calculate the scope, but your fundemental point that the scope is high and could be safely shortened is correct.

[Montanan]

To lengthen your rode and lower your angle of rode so as to improve your load holding AND TO REDUCE THE PEAK LOADING ON YOUR ANCHOR which peak loading is what tends to cause your anchor to break free, without increasing your swing distance from your anchor pivot, just tie off a longer twinned bridle to mid ship or nearer to aft mounted cleats instead of to your hardpoints at the bow. Adding 15 to 20 more feet of nylon bridle from the chain anchor rode gives a lot of additional spring / stretch capacity to the bridle and a much less harsh rise as compared to your bow tie up configuration and lessened chafe on the bridle. Your bow tends to pitch upwards with each wave and the inertia of such is considerable and must be restrained by pulling harshly on your rode, but your midship tends to rock a lot less and without the same velocity as the ends of the boat so tying your bridle to the midship eases the tension considerably. Plus boxing in your hull with the bow riding between the long leads of the V of the bridle aids in limiting yawing on anchor, keeps the boat aligned towards the wind. All to often sailors use short bridles tied directly off the bow cleats and don't take advantage of the fuller length of the vessel. Doing this type of bridle to chain configuration is very much like using spring lines to your vessel when docked.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

You need to add in the bow roller height from the waterline to calculate the scope, but your fundemental point that the scope is high and could be safely shortened is correct.

Yes you are are correct, so one needs to add that length to the denominator. But read my follow on post and one mitigates such additional rise considerably by tying to the midship to gain additional length and a lower distance to the water.

[sailorboy1]

And then there’s the guy who when you are 150’ away gets in his dinghy to come over to tell you you are too close. There will normally be more to the story

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Montanan

To lengthen your rode and lower your angle of rode so as to improve your load holding AND TO REDUCE THE PEAK LOADING ON YOUR ANCHOR which peak loading is what tends to cause your anchor to break free, without increasing your swing distance from your anchor pivot, just tie off a longer twinned bridle to mid ship or nearer to aft mounted cleats instead of to your hardpoints at the bow. Adding 15 to 20 more feet of nylon bridle from the chain anchor rode gives a lot of additional spring / stretch capacity to the bridle and a much less harsh rise as compared to your bow tie up configuration and lessened chafe on the bridle. Your bow tends to pitch upwards with each wave and the inertia of such is considerable and must be restrained by pulling harshly on your rode, but your midship tends to rock a lot less and without the same velocity as the ends of the boat so tying your bridle to the midship eases the tension considerably. Plus boxing in your hull with the bow riding between the long leads of the V of the bridle aids in limiting yawing on anchor, keeps the boat aligned towards the wind. All to often sailors use short bridles tied directly off the bow cleats and don't take advantage of the fuller length of the vessel. Doing this type of bridle to chain configuration is very much like using spring lines to your vessel when docked.

I agree short snubbers are detrimental to an anchor’s holding. Something in the order of 10-15m of nylon is needed in strong conditions to allow enough stretch for the anchor rode to function effectively.

This can be accomplished in several ways. Generally I rig the snubber from the stern cleats and attach the snubber to the chain close to bow roller, but there are other ways of achieving the same effect.

I would be reluctant to move the centre of effort towards the midship cleats as you seem to be proposing (if I understand correctly). I would expect this would increase the swing angle as well as causing the snubber to scrape along the hull sides.
However, I have never tried this, other than as a single snubber used to offset the bow in conditions where the wind and swell are poorly aligned, so perhaps it is worth a try.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

And then there’s the guy who when you are 150’ away gets in his dinghy to come over to tell you you are too close. There will normally be more to the story

Just politely ask him to move his dinghy away from your vessel so as to keep proper distance.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I agree short snubbers are detrimental to an anchor’s holding. Something in the order of 10-15m of nylon is needed in strong conditions to allow enough stretch for the anchor rode to function effectively.

This can be accomplished in several ways. Generally I rig the snubber from the stern cleats and attach the snubber to the chain close to bow roller, but there are other ways of achieving the same effect.

I would be reluctant to move the centre of effort towards the midship cleats as you seem to be proposing (if I understand correctly). I would expect this would increase the swing angle as well as causing the snubber to scrape along the hull sides.
However, I have never tried this, other than as a single snubber used to offset the bow in conditions where the wind and swell are poorly aligned, so perhaps it is worth a try.

Your approach works very well as to wisely using the length of your vessel to add spring to your snubbers and will similarly minimize the swing angle. Do you run your bridle along the deck inside the rail stanchions, or outside through some stand off fair leads outside the stanchions? If on your deck doesn't that lead to some rubbing of the deck and or the sides of your deck house?

There tends to be very little rubbing on the sides because the bow tappers and the twinned bridle meets its joining apex at its connection to the chain rode so the line desires to stand off the boat sides since they are inside the V formed from the widest beam points where the mid ship cleats are typically mounted and your boats freeboard sides generally fall inwards as it beam approaches the water line. The twinned bridle does come into contact if the boat swings angle, but it can't swing angle very much because it gets pulled taught on one side which pulls the hull back toward centered alignment and the opposite side is comparatively eased off when the side that becomes tensioned more takes up more of the total load. Kind of self regulating system.

This configuration is quite similar to how your spring lines don't rub significantly even though your boat swings angle when docked between finger piers of a slip and the boat side lies against a spring line, and also because the bridle doesn't move about much when placed taught under strain shifting just a few degrees vertically since the midship doesn't pitch nearly as significantly. Certainly no more rubbing then occurs when a boat lies onto its fenders at dockside or when med moored and laying against adjoining vessels, or rafting. It is harder for the boat to yaw swing when its bridle attachment points have greater athwartship distance instead of being very nearly in line with the rode direction when attached to just the bow cleats of the anchor roller.

The extra length of the bridle derives much greater stretch capacity and thus greatly reduces the peak loading in both approaches and doesn't increase the swing radius from the anchor. Use the LOA when it can be utilized for advantage. Adding length to the bridle with either of our schemes adds far greater holding power than adding similar distance of chain rode deployment.

[Connemara]

Anchored in Islington Bay in Auckland harbour last summer (antipodean summer) with maybe 15 other boats. Huge amount of space; I've seen it with 50 or 60 and that was not crowded.

I dropped the hook and when I settled back I was about 100 feet from another boat. Lady came out, gave me the stink eye, and asked if there was no other place I could have anchored. (She was less polite.)

Was tempted to say no but politeness overcame me at the last minute. Upped the hook and anchored 100 feet from someone else. (Joking. A
nd completely off the point.)

Connemara