Anchoring - Using Second Anchor as Weight ?

[outdoor]

ok i've seen the kiwi anchor rider and have a question. could you not just use a second anchor and let it slide down the existing anchor rode?

would this be good and reduce your swing and also allow first anchor to bite more?

As well how much line would you let the second anchor out?

i can't seem to find specifics on this method, but would think it would be a good method.

would it not be just as good as the 2 anchor 45 degree off bow?

[klem]

What you are trying to do is to use your 2nd anchor as a kellet which will have some advantages in certain conditions.

Kellets do not actually increase the holding power of modern anchors since the rode will be completely straightened before the anchor should drag. The advantage of them is to decrease your swing radius in calm conditions which they can do relatively effectively in certain conditions.

Using another anchor is not a common practice and there are a few things that you should think about before doing it. One, it increases the risk that you loose both your anchors and have no way of anchoring. Second, an anchor usually has sharp flukes and will abrade nylon line if you have that instead of chain for an anchor rode.

Setting 2 anchors is another way to decrease swinging radius. It can be a lot of work to do this and is really only necessary in situations with regular tide reversals. The biggest thing is that you should be consistent with the people around you.

[craigsmith]

You are conflating two different "techniques", tandem anchoring and using a kellet. There are plenty of specifics on both these topics, the below articles come up fairly high on Google for respective searches.

Tandem anchoring is complicated and fraught with problems. The idea is most definitely not to let the primary anchor lift off the seabed. If you stuff it up you end up with nothing more than an expensive kellet and a dragging [2nd] anchor.
Two to Tandem: Maximizing Holding Power by Tandem Anchoring

Kellets per se are a waste of time with any adequate anchor in terms of performance - they do nothing for the ultimate holding power. If you just want to reduce swing circle in light conditions, you don't need a proper anchor to do it... any weight will help.
Kellets or Anchor Angels / Sentinels: Uses and Applications

[dennisjay]

"Kellets per se are a waste of time with any adequate anchor in terms of performance . . ."

Well, maybe with a Rochna a kellet isn't needed. But my experience with an Anchor Buddy has been very good. I drag a lot less.

[Don1500]

Originally Posted by craigsmith

Tandem anchoring is complicated and fraught with problems. The idea is most definitely not to let the primary anchor lift off the seabed. If you stuff it up you end up with nothing more than an expensive kellet and a dragging [2nd] anchor.
Two to Tandem: Maximizing Holding Power by Tandem Anchoring

From this article I would conclude that a larger Rochna is preferable to two smaller Rochna's, say replace your 25# with a 30 or 35# to increase holding. Would that be correct?

[craigsmith]

Well in theory if the rig is set-up correct then it doesn't really matter and all anchors contribute their proportionate holding power according to their weight. But in practice it's good advice to have the largest primary anchor you can reasonably handle. If you're having trouble with an anchor that's too small, certainly the first choice is to up the size, not tie on a second

[FxdGrMind]

I suppose adding weight will help reduce the Radius durring tidal/wind shifts, but I would say that if you are doing that you 1, don't have a large enough ancor or 2, you don't have enough chain on the ancor.
Yea chain is expensive, weighs a lot more than nylon line, but if you need it, well it's "CHEAP" in comparison to other potential costs.....
I've only used a 2nd ancor, in a similar fashion, when I just got a boat and needed to get her home. The ancor chain was my first change on the boat!

Cheers and may you all "Hold fast" when needed.

[Roaring Girl]

It seems to me that there is still some confusion about what the kellett ('chum' in my language) is trying to do. The article Craig cites on kelletts etc quite rightly points out the different uses (extra holding/reducing swing/keeping stationery between bow and stern/reducing 'sailing' require different changes to the swing of the rode.

We only use a chum in tight anchoring situations. I agree that in many cases you want the same swing as the rest of the boats, which assumes that they have similar scope out for yourselves. But it is particualrly useful if you want to reduce your swing because the space itself is tiny - eg we used one in a small bay in Sardinia simple to keep us as still as possible in a very constrained spot without putting out a stern line which could have fouled other vessels.

We do have friends that use a small (4kg) delta as their chum; they also use it primarily in this way and like the slight extra grip it gives. Of course this is in now way a secondary anchor.

For more 'grip' ie to improve holding, I would improve (increase size/change model) my anchor, and in the short term, put out more chain. A chum is worse than useless because it makes weighing anchor more complicated so if the situation goes to s--t, it's harder to leave.

[Sunspot Baby]

conflating

Wow. Not a word I see often but well used in this case!

While a kellet may not increase the ultimate holding power of an anchor, it does increase the amount of wind and/or current required to straighten the rode. It also acts as a shock absorber as the forces push the vessel to straighten the chain/rode.

Using a kellet selsom hurts and usually helps in extreme conditions.

George

[Mark Zarley]

If you are anchored with vessels that are using an all chain rode, and yours is a small amount of chain with rode then a kellet will help you stay "instep" with your neighbors.

[barnakiel]

Or coil any amt of chain and lower it. Just make sure your coil is well made and tied up - you do not want to end up with a mess.

b.

[craigsmith]

Originally Posted by Sunspot Baby

While a kellet may not increase the ultimate holding power of an anchor, it does increase the amount of wind and/or current required to straighten the rode.

20 knots instead of 15. Or whatever. (I am exaggerating.) Totally pointless.

Originally Posted by Sunspot Baby

It also acts as a shock absorber as the forces push the vessel to straighten the chain/rode.

No, it does not. At least not when you actually need shock absorption, because by this time the chain is already straight, or damn near it, and you have no range left in the kellet's movement.

I try to knock this misconception on the head wherever I see it. The only effective shock absorption comes from rope and/or dedicated snubbers.

Originally Posted by Sunspot Baby

Using a kellet selsom hurts and usually helps in extreme conditions.

It can hurt in that it's a nuisance to retrieve. Mostly though it hurts in the sense that wishful thinking doesn't keep your boat off the rocks and you didn't spend the resources of the kellet on a bigger anchor or sensibly chosen high quality rope instead. If it needs repeating, it does not help in extreme conditions

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by craigsmith

... The only effective shock absorption comes from rope and/or dedicated snubbers...

Well, I would think something made of a gas spring that will absorb much stress quickly but kick back slowly could be even better. Anybody makes such a thing for the sailing market?

b.