Anchoring: What am I doing wrong?

[C Skip R]

Originally Posted by capngeo

Plain, simple anchoring formula.....
Buy any anchor that suits your fancy, but first look at the Manufacturer's recommended size for your boat....... Then DOUBLE IT and add AT LEAST one boat length of chain.... Again the next size up from what is recommended.

Now look for the right bottom, or select the best type of anchor for the specific bottom. I carry a bronze 25# Barnham plow, a Fortress FX-23, a Guardian "lunch hook" and a "disposable" steel Danforth knock off. My primary rode is 60' of high test 3/8 and 300' of 5/8 nylon. Secondary is 600' of 1/2" nylon, and the lunch carries 50' of 5/8".... I have a 28' boat that weighs 7k pounds.

I keep the plow set as primary only because the Fortress is too big for my anchor davit. Other than the lunch hook, I cannot remember the last time I dragged anchor.

Although I didn't double it my anchor size is the FX55 Fortress and my boat is 43' with 50' of 3/8" chain and line. Never have been happy with the Fortress. The Delta works much better.

[SurferShane]

Originally Posted by C Skip R

The problem I have found with the Fortress and lots of chain is sometimes the chain gets to the bottom before the anchor does which causes the anchor to have a hard time getting set. It just lays on the bottom and never gets properly set. I started using my Fortress as a stern anchor and have gone to the Delta as my primarily. It hooks up faster and holds much better especially when you have opposing tide and winds.

Good point.

In contrast, the only real drama I have had with using a short length of chain was when the rode got caught around a sharp unidentified obstacle. I picked up that this had happened fairly quickly so was lucky that it did not chew through. A quick splice and I was back in action.

The only other general problem I have had is when I dropped my anchor over offshore to let the twist out. I did not realise how heavy it was till it was hanging vertically in very deep water, If it was full chain I would not have been able to get it back on-board manually. In reflection, it is just as much my fault for not servicing my frozen manual windlass. Still, I like having an anchor with a small length of chain that I can pull by man power alone.


(I note, I am on a 28' coastal cruising sailboat. Biggest difference between the poster is that I have a low freeboard resulting in little windage and I can use the mizzen to stabilise her at anchor)

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Folks, nobody ever reads the OP carefully and then you spout off about what you do on your boat in your waters. The OP is on a 28-foot power boat, and it sounds like it is a coastal cruiser somewhere along the U.S. coast. You don't need or even want 100 feet of heavy chain on such a boat in sheltered coastal waters.

Pete

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Fortress

3. There has been much discussion about Danforth type of anchors not re-setting during a wind shift. This is entirely possible due to the limitations of sailboats to "Power Set" the anchors and bury them deeply by backing down hard on them.

The precision-machined and sharpened Fortress will head straight for China under heavy loads and will be difficult to pull out no matter what the direction of the wind, IF it has been first forced to bury deeply into the sea bottom by motor or wind.

Once this has been accomplished, then the two massive flukes of this anchor type will provide greater resistance to breaking loose versus a plow type with a single narrow fluke.

Brian,

We have a Fortress and think highly of it, but in no way would I trust it in resetting in a 180* shift. Your argument that sailboats are limited in setting it ignores the fact that not all bottoms are soft mud and no amount of "power setting" is going to get that anchor deep enough to never pull out. The danforth style anchor is not a design that rotates well when set, so during a hard shift in direction, it will either hold as set, bend during the shift or unset-flip-reset (hopefully). It is this latter mode that causes problems (although damaging an anchor is a problem also).

What makes the danforth style so good at holding is also its limitation in resetting - something can get caught in the flukes, and often does. More often than not in my experiences, unless the bottom is soft mud or pure sand.

Attached is a picture from a good holding mud bottom with a bit of coral pieces and weed. A 180* strong wind shift hit the anchorage suddenly. Two boats dragged. Both had danforth-style anchors. Attached is a picture of one with a Fortress showing the problem.

Again, I'm not debating your anchor. We have one and rely on it for certain applications. I chose it specifically because I think it is the best anchor for those applications.

Mark

[colemj]

The design of anchors like the Rocna, Delta, Supreme, CQR, etc cause them to rotate into new positions while still embedded. It is much rarer for them to pull out and reset - particularly the "new generation" ones. This is not the case for Danforth styles - they are designed to pull out, either by form instability when rotated on a single fluke or by coming over the top with a pull. When pulled out, the problem with Danforths is not "shedding mud", but having something caught in the pinch point of the fluke/shank pivot. This is what really prevents resetting.

Is is a bit disingenuous to compare steel anchors with aluminum anchors by weight. Even those manufacturers who make both types don't do that. And Danforth style anchors win by design on fluke area even when comparing weight steel to steel. That's the whole point behind the basic design.

Again, you make a good anchor and are actually in the best position of all manufacturers - almost everyone buys one of your anchors as a secondary/specialty anchor regardless of what they choose as a primary. You should run with that instead of competing on primary usage (just saying...).

BTW, your attachments go to dead links.

Mark

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by colemj

The design of anchors like the Rocna, Delta, Supreme, CQR, etc cause them to rotate into new positions while still embedded. It is much rarer for them to pull out and reset - particularly the "new generation" ones. This is not the case for Danforth styles - they are designed to pull out, either by form instability when rotated on a single fluke or by coming over the top with a pull. When pulled out, the problem with Danforths is not "shedding mud", but having something caught in the pinch point of the fluke/shank pivot. This is what really prevents resetting.

Interesting. The area is FULL of clams, many, many, many clams. Admittedly, the first time the chain fouled the anchor, because it was not completley buried. This is what lead me to more aggressively power-setting the anchor. when power-setting, I knock it into reverse to first stop forward momentum, then lower the anchor to the bottom, then start backing up, but engage in neutral to drift back as we pay out line. Then wait for the boat to stop on it's own and swing in line with the anchor set. Then back down again and watch the line straighten and the bow dip. I'm not planing the anchor through the water like a paravane.

I suspect this is a simple issue with resetting. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and advise.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Shrew

This is what lead me to more aggressively power-setting the anchor. when power-setting, I knock it into reverse to first stop forward momentum, then lower the anchor to the bottom, then start backing up, but engage in neutral to drift back as we pay out line. Then wait for the boat to stop on it's own and swing in line with the anchor set. Then back down again and watch the line straighten and the bow dip. I'm not planing the anchor through the water like a paravane.

I suspect this is a simple issue with resetting. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and advise.

That is exactly how an anchor should be initially set. But in a wind / current shift in the middle of the night (or when you are away from the boat exploring) , an anchor either needs to stay set or needs to reset. The latter is unlikely.

[colemj]

Just to let everyone know that I wasn't talking to myself in post #65 above. The post I was responding to was pulled by a moderator. It was polite and factual, and I didn't see anything objectionable in it, but that isn't my call to make. In a nutshell, it stated that new style anchors can also collect stuff in their flukes when pulled out and that aluminum Danforth style anchors have more fluke area than steel non-Danforth style anchors on a weight by weight basis.

Mark

[Cheechako]

It sounds like your technique is pretty good. I like to keep just minor tension on the rode as I let the boat settle back on it's own when possible. Then let it sit for a minute before backing down.
Your real problem is CLAY. It's hard and slippery. The anchor will catch temporarily on the surface of shells and sand. but eventually it will slide along the clay. Sure all chain is my preference... but 30 ft of chain is enough.

[GMac]

Originally Posted by zeehag

DEAR GMAC-----ZEE IS NOT A HIM.
ZEE is a female who HATES waking to anchor dragging. ZEE is a female who has sailed since age 7.
you , my dear, have been reading way too much cruising world, where they also get my gender incorrect.....
NOW, back to the point-----you KNOW that as a female, i am ALWAYS correct..LOL
almost....except for when i am not correct, which is rare..LOL....

Oh crap, good golly, Opps and bugger. To be honest it never crossed my mind you may be a inboard so I suppose that does make you right, damn it. I live in a house chocker with them so do know they are always right, they remind me nearly hourly Miss/Mrs/Ms Zeehag, my deepest apologies for being a mere outboard and in being one, being wrong so often even if I don't realise it. Oh, hang on, am I climbing up again or just digging the hole deeper?? I think I'll leave it there just in case and accept my failings with grace and some attempted dignity, if at all possible

Originally Posted by skipmac

Well I hope like *&%&^ you don't anchor in the same bay as me using a 4 Kg anchor to hold a 32' boat, no matter what kind of alloy it's made of. I will accept your statement that you have weathered 50 kt winds with that setup but would not want to be downwind of you when it's blowing to test that.

To anchor you come to a stop, throw it over and go for a beer? Don't set it or test it at all? Definitely don't want to be downwind of you even if it's not blowing.

Many anchors, and more so these days, don't rely on weight to work, they are surface area based and in being so can be made of many materials without any or only minimal performance differences then those a lot heavier in steel. I only used the 4kg (the steel version is 9kg) to freak people as that is what it does weigh BUT it's a 100% surface area based anchor so it makes no difference what it is made of. I would guess that if it was made if wood or plastic it would hold just as well. As a matter of interest it is the very anchor not featured in another anchors much watched, commented on and liked/disliked video. It doesn't feature (but can be seen in the back ground) as it held higher loads than the 10kg steel (but also a surface area design) anchor the video is promoting. My anchors design concept is also the one that other anchor is copied from. I don't set it as there is no need to, it will do it itself as the boat leans back on it anchoring system. If it was some other designs I would be setting it. Fortress another lite but again area based anchor, as danforth like patterns all are. It is approved by a highly reputable outfit as a SHHP and as can be seen in many tests, user comments it hold huge loads and is probably one of the best, if not the best, if you look at kg of holding power per kg of anchor weight. It's not all about the weight, many need to lose that mindset and look at each design in it's own right. 'Is this a surface area or a weight based anchor and if so how should I be sizing it?"
An example of what I mean -

Originally Posted by capngeo

Plain, simple anchoring formula.....
Buy any anchor that suits your fancy, but first look at the Manufacturer's recommended size for your boat....... Then DOUBLE IT and add AT LEAST one boat length of chain.... Again the next size up from what is recommended.

Capngeo is thinking in weight, which is fine with some anchors but not all. He he (oh gawd, Zeehag has me worried now), or maybe she, is very very typical so it's very understandable or at least in my eyes as I see it daily. Here he/she/they is suggesting double the recommended size. Lets just have a quick look at that for example purposes. 28fter, 7000lb. We'll exclude the hugely over sized 3/8" G4 chain, which has a WLL of 1/2 his displacement if using the world standard or 3/4's if talking the US standard way of working safe working loads. Manson recommend a Supreme of 25lb. Cap's saying go 50, which you can't they don't make them so we'll go a 45lber. A 45 is huge, very very huge and what Manson recommend for a 45ft offshore cruzer. Rocna suggest a 10kg, Cap a 20kg. As the Rocna and the Supreme are the same in performance and size the same as the Supreme applies. A plow, we'll use Manson numbers which are pretty much the same as CQR's. Recommend for the 28 a 25 or 30lber, Cap says go 50 or 60. That's massive. There is just no good reason to go that big bar 'the feel good factor', which is a totally valid argument as if you aren't happy you don't sleep and that's no good for anyone. But leaving that aside why carry all that never used weight, pay for all that never used sizing and winch to suit maybe? Not picking on you Cap, just you had a convenient post to referance for discussions sake. Please feel free to anchor above me any time by the way. It would be nice knowing we won't be meeting at 3am in our undies while holding fenders.

Why has the reply doddacky started working in HTML. Stop you silly thing, I'm not that smart. Sorry about that folks.

[zeehag]

rofl--GMac, i accept your humble apology and laugh with ye not at ye..LOl..
i find what works for me is the system i described--has never failed me. the only times a system similar to mine has failed with me aboard was in gulf of mexico when the owner only had 30 ft 3/8 chain with his 35 cqr on a 37 seidlemann..... i found the length and kind of chain there would have made a difference as his boat flew with the speed of wind once anchor was set. LOL no kind of anchor would have set in the silt we were trying to stick that anchor .... but the 100 ft of chain would have helped a lot--isnt the weight is the length to make chain not wrap around the anchor and pull it up. with 100 ft , there is enough length to keep that dragging from being as predictable. and i can vouch for the length of the 5/16 being easier to pull out of muck than the shorter 3/8 chain. pulled both without aid of windlass.
now with my formosa, i ENJOY my manual windlass more than my electric one--is more reliable.

[Shrew]

Update:

I kept all variables the same. Chain, line, technique. I took the danforth style anchor off and put the Rocna on. I anchored out over the weekend. No issues, though I only dragged every now and then with the old anchor to begin with, so I'm looking at a ratio of success/nights anchoring and it will take some time to establish those numbers.

I can say this......I have no windlass. My wife hauls the anchor. She could free the old danforth style anchor from the seabed very easily and retrieve by hand with no issues. The Rocna.....well, it was like hauling on a mooring even when the rode was vertical. She finally managed to get it free and haul it on board. A couple of times she looked back at me with that "are you @#$$%#$ kidding me??!!!" look.

We'll see how things go over time, but I'm optimistic. Keeping the previous anchor as my secondary.

[senormechanico]

It sounds to me like this time you actually WERE anchored...

[donradcliffe]

To help your wife break the the anchor out, have her cleat off the line (or chain) when near vertical, then motor ahead to break it loose.

[Dkdoyle]

I have a better idea. She drives and you pull the anchor.