Anchors - Bigger is Better ?

[downunder]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

39 foot boat, nominal 8 tonnes, 25kg Rocna, 8mm chain,
I had about 65metres veered in 12 or so metres of water with about 5 or 6 metres of 12mm nylon snubber.

It wasn't a steady breeze.... about 20/30 knots with 'off the scale' rachas.. people who live there said it was the worst they had ever seen...

Thanks I was going to ask the same. That's certainly not BIB for your vessel.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

39 foot boat, nominal 8 tonnes, 25kg Rocna, 8mm chain,
I had about 65metres veered in 12 or so metres of water with about 5 or 6 metres of 12mm nylon snubber.

It wasn't a steady breeze.... about 20/30 knots with 'off the scale' rachas.. people who live there said it was the worst they had ever seen...

As mentioned by Downunder and as a contributor to a thread titled Bigger is Better? you are certainly a poor advertisment for going 2 sizes bigger.

You are going to take some explaining by the supporters of the BIB group - but I am sure many will try

Jonathan

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Please explain why it is not safe for me to deploy 2 anchors a 15kg high performance Excel and a 8.5kg high performcne Fortress where the latter probably has the holding capacity of any modern 30kg steel anchor in most anchorages. Why is the Fortress good enough for you, by itself, but not good enough for me as one of my options?

Wich is why I said: (my emphasis)

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I would not feel comfortable with a 15kg (steel) anchor holding a 38 foot cat in strong wind. I am not convinced two anchors set in a V increases the holding much so I would not feel much better with two out.

The Fortress anchors in aluminium are obviously much larger than than an equivalent steel anchor. (As you say 30 kg). I don't feel one, or two, 15kg steel anchors provide an adequate safety margin for a 38 foot cat in strong wind. A 15kg Fotress aluminium anchor (or even a 8.5 kg model, although Fortress don't seem to have a model of this nominal size) would be a physically large anchor.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by JonJo

As mentioned by Downunder and as a contributor to a thread titled Bigger is Better? you are certainly a poor advertisment for going 2 sizes bigger.

You are going to take some explaining by the supporters of the BIB group - but I am sure many will try

Jonathan

With respect, the whole concept of BIB is meaningless unless you establish a baseline. Manson would recommend a 35# Supreme for his vessel, and he has a 55# - 2 sizes larger. On the Ultra selection chart, he would be recommended a 21 kg, or pretty much what he has. But if you want a Spade, better go up a couple of sizes because they recommend a 33#, just like Manson. Again, this is just a question of how long is a piece of string.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by congo

Maine Sale wrote;



AND I DON’T TRUST ALL INDEPENDENT TESTERS. My published test was independent from an anchor testing authority; those figures were produced whilst testing for certification.

Rex you need to put yourself in the customers shoes when it comes to anchor manufacturers and claims and going so far as outright lies (not including you in ANY of this). Having been through it personally & directly with both Alain Poiraud (Spade) and Rocna my skin has become a tad thick when it comes to manufacturers claims thus I need to see things for myself.

Originally Posted by congo

Rex wrote:

Originally Posted by congo

Well acknowlegding a public apology, sometimes goes a long way to making friends, if you own all of your anchors then why request an Excel.

??????? I'm lost on that first part?? Did I miss a post???

As for the Excel, as I said I don't believe the perfect anchor has been built yet but there may be better ones. I know which anchors in my quiver currently perform at the top for me but I don't currently own either an Ultra or Excel. You will NEVER catch me saying my Rocna, Mantus or Manson Supreme are the "best" anchors.... I am not shy to try new anchors and can be happy with even incremental improvements... The Excel may just be those incremental improvements...

Originally Posted by congo

Rex wrote:

Originally Posted by congo

Sheer performance, then why is the Rocna still there if you have tested a Mantus?

I have said before that I do feel my Mantus sets slightly faster than either my Manson Supreme or my Rocna. The ONLY reason it is not currently my primary is because of how it fits my boat. The small "incremental" improvement for me was not worth re-working my bow so as much as I hate it I have a Rocna up there. My Manson Supreme is one size too small for my liking otherwise it would be up there....

As to the hoop issue I don't feel the hoop should be removed from a Mantus, PERIOD. I have played with it enough to not use it that way it on my own boat in actual regular anchoring use. In water I have not been able to not get it to set and have done it only about 10-11 times in-water. n=10-11 does not make "success" or good science. On land however I have been able to get it to not self right and drag upside down...

This is enough for me to use caution and suggest that the hoop stay on a Mantus.. Some may want to try otherwise but for me it stays...

As to shank strength late this fall, prompted by net discussions, I went out and loaded my Mantus to a peak load of about 3200 pounds. I then made a full 180 loaded turn on it and pulled to over 3000 peak pounds again (the boat I was using tends to cavitate when stalled so sometimes 3k is all I can get).

I then retrieved the anchor, which took considerable effort, and the shank was bar straight.. That is a scenario I don't think I could ever re-create with our sailboat. I don't care what others do but it satisfied my curiosity. Course when Greg gets the stronger shafts I fully intend to BUY one from him, why not......

The difference for me between Rocna, Spade and Mantus was that Greg was TOTALLY HONEST and UPFRONT about the shank material and I still bought the anchor. he has never once mislead me even though I do disagree with him about the hoop. The Bambury's, C. Smith and Alain P. all lied to me about certain things regarding their anchors. BOLD LIES..... Hence my skepticism with many anchor manufacturers.

Originally Posted by congo

Maine sale wrote:

Originally Posted by congo

I understand that what works here may not work in other substrates around the world. This is why I test, for myself....


Rex wrote:
Then what analysis are we to draw from your findings.

It means just what I said. It means that each user of an anchor needs to figure out what works best for them where they are cruising. If my Spade S-80 worked best up here it would be on my bow in a split second. I hate advertising for Rocna, despite the new owners seeming to be decent folks, and I in fact hide it in my anchor locker when not using it..... If my Mantus fit better it would be up there.... If I had a 35 Manson Supreme it would be up there but I have a 25..... We certianly don't have the weeds they do down in Patagonia so a Rocna may not be the ideal anchor down there where it preforms very well up here.... If I was to move to Patagonia I would spend considerbale time learing what anchor works best and would not be surprised or shocked to find it was a differnt anchor than what I use up here.

Originally Posted by congo

Maine sale wrote:

Originally Posted by congo

I have never had anything clog up the hoop anchors to the point they unset and this is with piles and piles of pulls in clay, thick black mud, soft mud etc. from 1000 - 4400 pounds.

__________________
Originally Posted by El Pinguino

That said I once had Smith senior aboard in the Falklands.. I anchored and wasn't happy with my possy... weighed anchor and shifted ... anchor was full of sticky mud, Smith senior very insistent that all mud had to be cleared off anchor or it wouldn't re-set.

There are many comments from many forums of roll bar concave anchors clogging.

Again it means exactly what I said.... I, as in ME, MYSELF and I, have never had a mud/clay ball stop the anchor from performing UNDERWATER by clogging the hoop. Yes, I have pulled it up many times with clay/mud in it, as I have my Bruce, Spade, Supermax, Oceanne, Fortress, Manson and Mantus, but it had still been fully loaded underwater and not had any issues.

Every time we set the anchor we back down and test the set at 80% to 100% throttle in reverse which can load the anchor to about 600-800 pounds and peak to over 1200 if I give it hull momentum... If I had to shoot from the hip I would say I have close to 40 pulls with a digital strain gauge on my Rocna plus hundreds of actual anchorings. The only thre times my hoop anchors have not set and held were when:

#1 Picked up a lobstermans muddy sweat pants off the bottom in Stonington Maine. They were stuck on the tip, not the hoop. (Rocna)

#2 Picked up a large root ball of eel grass. It too was impaled on the tip when it came to the surface. (Rocna)

#3 My Mantus once refused to set because there was 8" of soft silt/mud over a sheer granite ledge bottom. If I find an anchor that can set and hold in solid Maine granite, well then, the best anchor will have been built...

I don't doubt for one second that the hoop could limit deep diving and can potentially clog. This is one reason why I am always on the look out for improvements that don't depend upon such things as a roll bar.. The reality for me is that over 100's of anchorings, with hoop anchors, and testing etc. none of my hoops have clogged enough to prevent the anchor from doing its job UNDER WATER. Can it happen? I am certain it can just has not happened to me, yet...

Originally Posted by congo

Maine sail wrote:

Interestingly my 25 pound CQR has less than a seasons use yet sets no better on that hard intertidal zone that the "worn" (per Congo) CQR 35 pound model? I suspect this wear is less of a real concern having had two side by side with differing wear..?

Rex wrote:


Good to see you have acknowledged the wear regardless of your findings, but don’t you think it would be fair to demonstrate with one that isn’t partially disabled, C. Smith went the other way, how do you know your Rocna isn’t especially sharpened.

The REALITY is that in the real world CQR's pins wear. There are tens of thousands of them out there like this so my test was "real world". It was also comparing a 33 pound Rocna to a 35 pound CQR. If I had used a 25 pound CQR all the "experts" would have claimed "unfair comparison"... Asit was Craig Smith claimed "unfair" because I dragged the Rocna slightly faster. Damn thing still set. The CQR 25 performs IDENTIACLLY to my 35 in that hard intertidal area, no set.

As to C. Smith especially sharpening my Rocna, WOW. Let the conspiracies begin..... Why would C. Smith have done that to my Rocna and not done it to EVERY ROCNA? When I bought my Rocna the only video I had ever made was sent to Alain Poiraud directly and never published. I don't even think YouTube existed and I had to find a special editor for the POS video cam I bought (proprietary video format BS) just to send a video to Alain over issues I was having.. I was nothing more than any other Joe buying a Rocna when I bought my Rocna. That said the current Chinese Rocna is actually sharper than my pre-debacle version.......

Originally Posted by congo

Maine sale wrote:

Originally Posted by congo

Unfortunately I can't get my hands on an Excel (are you listening Congo?) so all the great talk about an Excel does those of us in the US no good.......

Rex wrote:


Yes you can, you just have to pay to have one shipped over, you bought all of your others, no unfortunately we do not have agents in your part of the world, but if you had been following the locked Excel thread and quite a few on the BIB thread have easily obtained their Excels, from me, now in many countries and are enjoying its performance as an all right anchor.

Rex,

I will certainly consider doing that but the last two times I did that the anchor I bought was up to 3X cheaper within a few years. I paid well over 1k for my original Spade and approx $700.00 +/- for my Rocna 33. Perhaps it pays to wait until you have world wide distribution and I am not paying $250.00 in freight just to get it here..? I also want to try an Ultra...

Originally Posted by congo

Maine sale wrote:

Originally Posted by congo

All that said I am ABSOLUTELY NOT a believer the perfect anchor has been built yet and would love to try an Ultra or Excel but like you I am a Scot....

Rex wrote :


Just so you all know the above quote was directed at Jon Jo, as far as myself, I think I am a Heinz variety, Maine sale, there will never be the perfect anchor, just better ones.

Regards Rex.

I agree fully. I suspect the Excel may be that "better" mouse trap but for now, my much maligned hoop anchors are performing exceptionally well for where I anchor and cruise...... Can there be a better anchor, ALWAYS....

[JonJo]

El Pinguino,

You are obviously comfortable with your anchor rode and anchor. Given that you have spent some time in some pretty arduous places what else do you carry in terms of ground tackle, which other anchors and weights or sizes, have you had need to deploy them and if so - how did they perform.

I compliment your sailing, getting out and doing in a not particularly large yacht and in a rather chilly place. Looking at your image it appears you might have sailed down the Atlantic. All credit to you - its nice to take ones hat off to someone

Where next?

Jonathan

[El Pinguino]

Gday Jonathan,
It can be cold and wet but the main requirement is patience.. sit long enough ( my longest has been about a week) and the weather will be going your way eventually. Last time up from the south in late autumn we had glassy calm for 3 out of 4 days in Estrecho de Magallanes... that's Cabo Pilar at the western end of Isla Desolación in the pic. A few years earlier at the same time of year took us 3 weeks to get 70 miles to windward in the same bit of water and the temp didn't get above 2*C for 6 weeks... you don't have to be mad but it helps...
That said we have had our moments and I have had a few frights.
Anchors? I have only used the old CQR and the Rocna in Chile... the former gave me one or two 'frights in the night'.
There is a never ever used brand new Manson 'CQR' somewhere under my bunk... bin there about 13 years or so. Also a Fortress ( no idea of its weight ) under another bunk... used it a few times when new just cos I could. Up frd I had my Swarbrick on the roller ready to go for a few years in Chile but never used it so its back down below in the focsle. I did use it several times in Tasmania and Bass Strait when my CQR wouldn't set... worked good... sat out a full blown gale at Walkerville down near the Prom for a week on it once .. v happy... about 15 metre of heavy chain (12mm?) and then lotsa nylon... wind from NW off the land... swell coming in round the corner from the south. Also have a danforth with a bent shank on the taffrail that I use as a kedge now and again when doing a 3 and a bit line tie up..
Went out into the Atlantic once... up to BA and Uruguay and back via the Falklands... nasty bit of ocean.

Plans? Heading for Unzud to do a half life overhaul on her and then all being well back to Chile.
Cheers,
Frank

ps the hardest bit of sailing in Chilean Patagonia is getting there.....

[congo]

Main Sail. Thank you for coming back and your detailed response, I seem to be forever apologizing but I have just realized this is the first time I have spelt you name correct ally, it was not intentional, struggled with it all my life , they call it dyslexia, although the Missus sometimes think I take advantage of it?

Yes well I have no problem with your response, it think it is mainly confusion that came about because of my ongoing stoushes with Noelex, I am not blaming him but I am disappointed he didn’t supply the evidence to his argument without involving you, as a result I PRESUMED and that is why I apologized.

I don’t believe there is any need for you to explain your relationship with Greg, what he does with you is his business, I think I paid him a compliment.

There is far greater value for all to be friends rather than foe, now we understand one another, we can keep it pleasant, I am not a C. Smith or anybody else that has wronged you.

Regards Rex.

[Shas Cho]

Originally Posted by Richard_W

Here is a radically different approach that might get you closer to achieving this goal ... a dead man anchor that is a part of a sailboat ballast system ... it can be as heavy as you wish within reason.

Now THAT is an outside-the-box solution!
I like it!

[Shas Cho]

Originally Posted by downunder

...they are retiring creatures and will only bite if they are being harassed and poked.

Or if they FEEL they are being harassed.
Critters from hornets to humans
have been known to misinterpret
even the most benign and friendly gestures...

[JonJo]

Thanks frank,

I had not picked out any stars on the image, other than you of course, and had assumed it was an unadorned Red Ensign, if you are from hereabouts - no insult was intended

But thank you for the detail.

Its odd that the better, or more interesting, cruising grounds are seldom ones home waters. I wonder if Chileans hanker to sail in the Caribbean or Mediterranean in the same way we hanker to sail in Patagonia?

have a safe trip back, fair winds and hopefully a bit of warmth.

Jonathan

[JonJo]

Maine Sail


[QUOTE=Maine Sail;1408510


As to shank strength late this fall, prompted by net discussions, I went out and loaded my Mantus to a [I]peak load[/I] of about 3200 pounds. I then made a full 180 loaded turn on it and pulled to over 3000 peak pounds again (the boat I was using tends to cavitate when stalled so sometimes 3k is all I can get).

I then retrieved the anchor, which took considerable effort, and the shank was bar straight.. That is a scenario I don't think I could ever re-create with our sailboat. I don't care what others do but it satisfied my curiosity. Course when Greg gets the stronger shafts I fully intend to BUY one from him, why not......


I did not go to the effort to try to bend the shank of my 15kg Mantus.

I did the 'ball bearing' test on the shank and disbelieving the results (as I 'knew' it was made from A36 steel, yield of 250 MPa) I took it to a commercial metallurgical lab for testing. Like you, no-one sponsors this. The lab tests and mine were in fair agreement (mine were higher) but the lab tested the steel to be a 500 MPa material, based on 6 Brinnel tests.

Based on the shank dimensions a 500 MPa steel would result in a shank not dissimilar in strength to the offspec Rocna anchors, some of which bent - but many I suspect are still in service. The 250 MPa Mantus shanks are obviously weaker.

Whether your tests simulated the conditions under which Rocna shanks bent - I have no idea - but the specified material would bend under a load of a few hundred pounds and not the load you are describing. I consequently suspect your shank and mine might be made from the same sort of steel - but maybe your is better.

There has never been an explanation as to why the shank I had was twice as strong as specified but it does allow one to draw imaginative conclusions - one being the manufacturer might have had a supply issue and used whatever it was he had in stock. This is fine, unless his available stock is not as good as that specified (though difficult to get anything worse than 250 MPa). It would be interesting if you could check out your shank and define what sort of steel it is made from.

It is certainly reassuring the Mantus have offered to replace any of the old shanks, no questions asked, when they have stock of the appropriate A 514 shanks. Hopefully they will post same on their website (they might have already done so).


But - Maine Sail, you do yourself an injustice. Your independence and views are respected, your testing is highly regarded and consequently if you say something (or do not say something) then conclusions are drawn - simply because of the respect you engender.

If, for example, it is known you have an an anchor with (again - for example) obvious faults questions are then raised as to why you have not flagged the faults - even though the tests are for you and you alone. In the past you have shared your views - why the reticence over a specific model? Not many have your expertise nor ability - who else is going to tell them.

As an example - you have now tested your Mantus shank and made the detail public, above. This test is valid for your shank but having aired the results others might think their shanks are as good (and not bother to replace) if their shanks are 250 MPa this might not be wise if it happens your shank is a 500 MPa or better.

Sadly you might have involuntarily taken on the mantle of a moral responsibility to become a harbinger of bad news - or unexpected results.

Jonathan

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by JonJo

I had not picked out any stars on the image, other than you of course, and had assumed it was an unadorned Red Ensign, if you are from hereabouts - no insult was intended I wonder if Chileans hanker to sail in the Caribbean or Mediterranean in the same way we hanker to sail in Patagonia?

Jonathan

A very small sailing community in Antofagasta but I've met a couple of Chilean circumnavigators and also a few that have done the 'Circuito de Pacifico' but none that have been sailing in Patagonia.....

Yes the boat is UK flagged... was like that when I bought her in Thailand 20 years ago... was going to cost $$$$$ to change to Oz rego so .....

Back to anchors ... I was asked by Smith senior to say something nice about Rocnas and that is now on the Rocna site.. what I said still holds good but later, after I mentioned the one small incident, I received an email from C.Smith telling me where I was going wrong in the way I anchored..... I notice he went quiet at about the same time as the Canadian outfit took over the manufacturing rights. Maybe he was de-barked as part of the deal.....

Re BiB, on a v small boat I would suggest BiB is a good idea... but the bigger the boat the less the need. Same with scope.... shallower the water the less the accepted depth/scope ratio will work..... deeper the water the opposite applies. I seem to recall that cray boats on the west coast of Tasmania lie to home made bits of ironmongery (called 'mulligans'?) with potline as the rode out near the 100 fathom line in all sorts of weather. Me? I sleep better with 4 lines in the trees....
Cheers,
Frank

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by congo

Main Sail. Thank you for coming back and your detailed response, I seem to be forever apologizing but I have just realized this is the first time I have spelt you name correct ally, it was not intentional, struggled with it all my life , they call it dyslexia, although the Missus sometimes think I take advantage of it?

Yes well I have no problem with your response, it think it is mainly confusion that came about because of my ongoing stoushes with Noelex, I am not blaming him but I am disappointed he didn’t supply the evidence to his argument without involving you, as a result I PRESUMED and that is why I apologized.

I don’t believe there is any need for you to explain your relationship with Greg, what he does with you is his business, I think I paid him a compliment.

There is far greater value for all to be friends rather than foe, now we understand one another, we can keep it pleasant, I am not a C. Smith or anybody else that has wronged you.

Regards Rex.

Thanks Rex!!

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by Delfin

SS cold flows and is quite weak,.

Really??? Can you provide a reference???