Anchors - Bigger is Better ?

[N4712]

Originally Posted by darylat8750

Bigger is better = best;-) NOW THAT will HOLD. I just need a boat big enough to carry it!

Is that for an big Marian dragline?

[cheoah]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

I am sure this would never satisfy the net cadre. I don't have the time to sit here and defend a test like that so it will not get published. Simply not worth it.

Nor do you need to.

Your work speaks for itself. It is respected because it is thorough and professional, and some of the best technical material on the web for boaters. People can take it or leave it, present their own work, whatever. Pretty clear the awkward dynamics involving commercial interests here - that's just business. It is a free market, so in the end let the people decide and "pay" for what they want

The issue with anchor testing is that there are so many variables in real world use. I'm stating the obvious, but the number of variables make it difficult to issue blanket claims about performance. As far as testing goes, it is what it is, so we are left to have endless debates about all of it -- until we come up with something better. I won't hold my breath, and will continue to try and make good anchoring decisions, informed by whatever information I can get my hands on.

I'm not in the Bigger is Better program. Who else out there is buying the anchor that the manufacturer suggested for your boat size? Am I the only clown sizing down? I bought a 35 lb Mantus for my Pacific Seacraft 34, backed up by a Fortress FX-23 for storm events. The Fortress is stowed, so I expect the Mantus to fly solo in up to Gale force conditions. This system has worked for several tropical storms and hurricanes, except formerly with a 35 lb CQR in lieu of the newly purchased Mantus 35.

The anchor business is full of palace intrigue! I had no idea the depth of it, having only cursory knowledge of the personalities and scandals of the past. Not much of interest to me there...except the metallurgical and practical bits...

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by foggysail

No disagreement in comparing SS to high quality steels. It was the cold flow that I essentially questioned. The only info I could find regarding cold flow was related to 304 where dynamic softening will occur at temperatures above 750 degrees C. I am not aware of any cold flow issue to date, that was what I questioned...... and of course there may be that issue and I am not aware of it.

Shackles--- My experience is you have to purchase the good ones. The cheepies are just junk. Once I tested a good one with a sledge hammer in an attempt to force the pin opening a few thousands wider with zero luck.

I may have it wrong, but I believe cold flow is what happens when a metal distorts at pressures lower than yield strength delivered over time. Stainless is used to form metal sinks out of because it cold flows without breaking, so can be drawn over a die to make the shape of the sink. If austentic, it has pretty high elongation.

On the shackle, you might be right, but I don't recall buying any cheap ones. The one I am referring to simply stretched without breaking due to the halyard load, which must have been quite a lot less than the yield strength since it was me hoisting it.....

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by cheoah

I'm not in the Bigger is Better program. Who else out there is buying the anchor that the manufacturer suggested for your boat size? Am I the only clown sizing down?

Well I am, for one. As noted above, selection charts vary by manufacturer. What is BiB for one manufacturer is too small for another, so how the selection chart was made and with what assumptions determines its validity, not some rule of thumb that says "go up one size to be safe". The Ultra selection algorithm says you need a 16 kg Ultra and I read somewhere on their site this chart is based on winds up to 90 knots for the different types of vessels shown. Mantus says you need an anchor weighing 35# more for a "storm anchor", whatever that means. I can think of a few good reasons why this might be the case, but bottom line the design of the anchor has a bit to do with sizing, don't you think?

[River Cruiser]

Originally Posted by N4712

Is that for an big Marian dragline?

Yes, I saw a pic of the bucket off "Big Brutus" when I was in high school, our shop class took a field trip to see it in the strip mine in southeast Kansas about 50 years ago. They had a picture of it with about 20 VW bugs parked in the bucket, took 3 people to operate it & had a equipped machine shop on it to make parts it might need.

[El Pinguino]

It wouldn't work...
The manufacturers admit it drags....

[River Cruiser]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

It wouldn't work... The manufacturers admit it drags....

Yes but this is what it takes to drag it;-)

[bfloyd4445]

Originally Posted by congo

This is one photo that was circulating the net,Iam having some difficulty working this out.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...1&d=1386304175

Regards Rex.

I've had that happen to me in Oregon. One time with my Columbia river anchor I could not lift the load of clay and had to use the windlass

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by River Cruiser

Yes but this is what it takes to drag it;-)

Well there you go... she's hard aground... thats what happens when you use these new fangled anchors..

[sabray]

Big is better when I anchor in unprotected harbor in bad weather. That happens like seldom. Okay three times. Even then my higher but not really big held fine. On those occasions I had a Bruce then a spade and then a cqr. Not in that order.
All held. The week link was snubber, shackles and technique. Having good well matched gear is more important then going paranoid over size. Knowing how to use the gear is even better. Having a nice backup is a good choice . That's all compromise of money and then going out and using the gear.
How big is big.
I remember a camper Nicholson that was so down on her bow she sailed like a pig. But hey they had all kinds of gear. Just no way that girl was going any where with out the engine. So yikes yeah go big but you need to also have a boat that can sail.
Guess my old for sale Luke would hold in kelp covered rocks better then a big new gen high surface hook. That new thing isn't going to bury right?

[congo]

Sabray wrote:

Big is better when I anchor in unprotected harbor in bad weather. That happens like seldom. Okay three times. Even then my higher but not really big held fine. On those occasions I had a Bruce then a spade and then a cqr. Not in that order.
All held. The week link was snubber, shackles and technique. Having good well matched gear is more important then going paranoid over size. Knowing how to use the gear is even better. Having a nice backup is a good choice . That's all compromise of money and then going out and using the gear.
How big is big.
I remember a camper Nicholson that was so down on her bow she sailed like a pig. But hey they had all kinds of gear. Just no way that girl was going any where with out the engine. So yikes yeah go big but you need to also have a boat that can sail.
Guess my old for sale Luke would hold in kelp covered rocks better then a big new gen high surface hook. That new thing isn't going to bury right?
__________________

Wrong? hang in there you lot, this thread has not been a waste of time, we are about to launch our new computerized Excel anchor,increases in size for the soft substrates, shrinks in size to make Shure it is allways buried, changes shape for the various substrates, marvellous stuff this new anchor technology. Oh and has a special pocket for Noelex's octapuss.

Regards Rex.

[JonJo]

Interesting update

40 Tips On Anchoring Gear

The idea of going two sizes up in anchor has been tempered, slightly, to going at least one size up.

Alloy Spades seem to have gained some favour, as the second anchor (no mention of any other anchor as a second, or third, anchor) - but fishermens, Luke seem to be getting the thumbs down for most.

G43 is endorsed - though not sure why, failure of BBB or G30 seems notable by its absence. G70 gets another positive nod, saves weight etc.

Copy anchors are eschewed - not sure quite what this means. Do they mean Mantus, Supreme, Boss do not work? If they do not mean these (as copies) - to what do they refer when they say do not buy copy anchors? I'm confused.

Swivels seemed to lack votes - but I might have misunderstood this.

Snubbers really get the thumbs up as do larger windlass - the first are cheap the second wallet crunching.

There is more and more.

Jonathan

[hpeer]

Thanks for the link. I need to spend some more time on that site. Been there before but missed something.

[Cotemar]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Interesting update
40 Tips On Anchoring Gear

Jonjo,

This is great. Thanks for sharing.
He has summarized 1573 post into one paragraph.
This guy is just brilliant.

Anchors
1) The CQR has caused me more anxiety than any other piece of boat kit. The fundamental problem is that it only sets quickly and reliably in thick mud. In most other bottom types its setting capability ranges from poor to completely useless. If you have a CQR, get rid of it and buy a new style anchor.

2) The Bruce is better about setting than the CQR, but has some dangerous weaknesses including poor ultimate holding, difficulty in resetting when it does drag and susceptibility to fouling—there are better alternatives today.

3) We have had good luck with Danforth type (Fortress) anchors in some bottom types, but found them near useless in others, particularly hard sand and rocky areas—again, the new style anchors work in more different bottom types.

4) Concave fluke anchors (when viewed from the boat) are always better than convex.

5) We recommend that you own at least one new style anchor like a Rocna or SPADE and two would be better. They set quickly, and hold better than the old style anchors and they do it in just about every bottom type.

6) With these new style anchors available, you no longer need a fisherman type anchor, unless you are venturing to an area with really thick kelp on the bottom.

7) With anchors, particularly the best bower, bigger is better. Go up at least one size from the manufacturer’s recommendation.

8) Use a heavy anchor and light rode, not the other way around.

9) Your best bower should be made of galvanized steel, never stainless steel or aluminum.

10) You should have a secondary anchor made of aluminum and set on rope with a short chain leader so you can set it from your dinghy easily if you go aground or get into some other mess. The aluminum SPADE is the best anchor for this purpose.

11) Don’t waste a lot of your time worrying about which is better, a SPADE or a Rocna, they are both great anchors, although they do have a slightly different mix of strengths and weaknesses.

12) The whole bolt-in-SPADE issue is a non-issue; make sure yours is pinned and stop worrying about it.

13) And I’m going to stick my neck out and guess that the same applies to the whole sub-standard-Chinese-steel-Rocna issue, although if you have one, taking Rocna up on the free replacement offer just makes sense.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Interesting update

John (Morgans cloud) is a smart guy, he writes well, and has put together one of the better commercial cruising website.

But

He has never left the North Atlantic. And he is more opinion than fact driven.

On this list there are numerous things one could quibble with . . . His comment about concave vs convex with no science and no experience with Rex's anchor. His comment about the Bruce with relatively little experience (I believe he went from cqr to spade). His general comment about "copies" (some are in fact arguably better than the original). Why one size up, and is that true for all brands/sizing charts. I could go on.

When I listen to opinion, I want to listen to someone with vast/the most experience . . . John Neil and steve Dashew would rate WAY ahead of john harries (in most categories of experience).

It is still interesting and fun reading. He is trying to drive traffic to his site and he knows anchor opinions generate conversation and traffic.