Anchors - Bigger is Better ?

[El Pinguino]

I just like to listen to everyone but people who reckon they have 'the answer' worry me... bit like being 'born again' init.

All I know is what works and didn't work for me. I know the CQR often didn't work in Patagonia... the Rocna does (kelp)( 5 years with each). I know that at times in SE Australia the CQR didn't work but when it didn't my Swarbrick did (hard sand).

I recall that the marketing for the Bruce used to be 'all same as used on North Sea oil rigs'. Oh OK.. but drill ships and non-DP semis lie to 8 anchors ( 4 at each end... 2 in each quarter ) and it is a static pull... hardly a 'yacht' situation.
The last drill ship I worked on had 8 'home brew' 5 tonne ( give or take) Danforth style... they had worked for her for over 20 years....

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I just like to listen to everyone but people who reckon they have 'the answer' worry me... bit like being 'born again' init.

All I know is what works and didn't work for me. I know the CQR often didn't work in Patagonia... the Rocna does (kelp)( 5 years with each). I know that at times in SE Australia the CQR didn't work but when it didn't my Swarbrick did (hard sand).

...

Agreed.

Anchoring in the n Atlantic is a bit different from the s pacific (coral heads and deeper) which a bit different to some of southern Australia (really hard sand), which is a bit different to Patagonia (kelp and shore ties), which is a bit different to Antarctic (bergs in the anchorages). . . .etc.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

John (Morgans cloud) is a smart guy, he writes well, and has put together one of the better commercial cruising website.

But

He has never left the North Atlantic. And he is more opinion than fact driven.

On this list there are numerous things one could quibble with . . . His comment about concave vs convex with no science and no experience with Rex's anchor. His comment about the Bruce with relatively little experience (I believe he went from cqr to spade). His general comment about "copies" (some are in fact arguably better than the original). Why one size up, and is that true for all brands/sizing charts. I could go on.

When I listen to opinion, I want to listen to someone with vast/the most experience . . . John Neil and steve Dashew would rate WAY ahead of john harries (in most categories of experience).

It is still interesting and fun reading. He is trying to drive traffic to his site and he knows anchor opinions generate conversation and traffic.

Anchor threads engender much interest and controversy and are great for sites that rely on advertisers, this one being a case in point. (I'm surprised that I have not been accused of working for CF - given the longevity of this thread, I'm still waiting for my thank-you bottle of whisky from CF for maintaining traffic numbers)


I think I noted that Morgan's Cloud (MC) also want to sell an e-book on anchoring - so we cannot expect too much detail, buy the book?

Explanations I hope are in the e-book:

Previously in a similar article from MC I thought that they had been recommending going 2 sizes bigger (but this might have been me manipulating to my own advantage) - this looks to have been mellowed to 'at least one size bigger'. Why the change, why one size bigger - maybe next time 'one should go with the anchor makers recommendation'.

I found it slightly contradictory that ones second anchor (that might have to replace the primary) should be an alloy anchor but an alloy anchor should never be the primary. And the only alloy to merit mention was a Spade (which is roundly condemned here, for not setting, by some). Obviously he has never seen a Fortress.

I know its been put to bed but despite the numbers of bent off spec Rocnas - one should not worry if you have one from that era? However I am also conscious it was a non-event in America (where numbers sold were low) but of much more significance elsewhere, especially Europe.

I'm not a fan of swivels (unless I was to anchor in a tidal river in one spot for 2 weeks) - so I liked the negativity to them but my dislike is because people fix them directly to the shank and they introduce more connectors to go wrong. He seems to dislike them as they do not actual do what is intended (a take I had not noticed).

He appears to be a fan of snubbers and G70 chain, I'd have enjoyed a bit more detail. Especially as neither are mainstream.

And I still cannot get my head around his dislike of copies (as Evan says many copies add real value and improve on the original), but maybe they love the pure and unique originality of the Rocna. Is he trying to knock Ultra and Supreme - or is he being more general?

But I'll never know as its unlikely anyone will give me the e-book

Jonathan

[cheoah]

The morgans cloud list is pretty good though. If a new cruiser reads that and follows that course, they will be a step ahead of many.

I never realized the commercial aspect of the site. Haven't been there in a while, but I didn't know they were charging for content.

[JonJo]

I'm a big fan of Spades, both steel and alloy version - but a new cruiser would need a well filled wallet to have both a, next sized up, steel one as a main anchor and an alloy one as their second + invest in a bigger windlass. If you were changing the windlass then would be the time to buy one with a gypsy for the smaller G70 chain which means buying new chain.

I also think the advise sound but a bit focussed, for whatever reason, and lacking both flexibility and choice (or options).

Just a bit too dogmatic

Jonathan

[cheoah]

Ya they don't mention fortress as an alloy option but that's pretty common second.

[estarzinger]

^^

BTW . . . I seem to remember seeing a fortress on Morgans Cloud. I suspect it is still there. He raced, back when you could still do that moderately successfully on a 'real' cruising boat, and the fortress was/is the racing anchor of choice. But I suspect they don't use it all that much.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

^^

BTW . . . I seem to remember seeing a fortress on Morgans Cloud. I suspect it is still there. He raced, back when you could still do that moderately successfully on a 'real' cruising boat, and the fortress was/is the racing anchor of choice. But I suspect they don't use it all that much.

It, Fortress, is still the anchor choice for racing yachts, its a specified item on the Volvo (2014) (I'll be corrected if I'm wrong but 2 x FX 85s?) and is supplied as a standard pack and was carried on the Vendee yachts (2 x FX 55's?) in 2012. They need carry a short length of chain and a longish bit of warp. On both races the yachts need to carry 2 anchors, both same sized Fortress.

It, the Fortress, was actually used on both the 2012 and previous 2008 Vendees for 'emergency' stops to effect repairs

On the previous Clipper race the yachts anchored when they left Cape Town, to stem an adverse tide and no wind. Contrarily the current and previous Clipper races use(d) Deltas - but Deltas on racing yachts is exceptional.

Anchors on racing yachts can thus actually be used, in anger, they are more than simply meeting safety requirements.

Jonathan

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Anchors on racing yachts can thus actually be used, in anger, they are more than simply meeting safety requirements.

Jonathan

Actually they are used quite often in racing areas with current. We used to use one about every third block island race, when the wind shut off/switched direction at night in long island, to stem an adverse current. Always a fortress using a spare halyard as rode.

Since you bring it up . . . the new (this year) US requirement for offshore races is "A boat shall carry one anchor, meeting the anchor manufacturer's recommendations based on the yacht's size, with a suitable combination of chain and line."

While the ISAF requirement (which the vendee and volvo follow) is "2 anchors together with a suitable combination of chain and rope, all ready for immediate use"

[Jim Cate]

One thing about anchoring race boats: they usually have big and strong crews, and are used to standing watches. Thus, the "failing to reset on wind shift" question is not an issue for them. This is at odds with many cruising and daysailing yachts.

And yeah, racers do anchor... the largest lead I ever achieved while racing on SF Bay was obtained when I anchored and no one else did. We kinda snuck the hook over behind the genoa and continued to pretend to trim sails, etc. After the race, I was accused of running the engine! "Only possible way you could have gotten so far ahead". A fond memory!

Cheers,

Jim

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

One thing about anchoring race boats: they usually have big and strong crews, and are used to standing watches. Thus, the "failing to reset on wind shift" question is not an issue for them. This is at odds with many cruising and daysailing yachts.

And yeah, racers do anchor... the largest lead I ever achieved while racing on SF Bay was obtained when I anchored and no one else did. We kinda snuck the hook over behind the genoa and continued to pretend to trim sails, etc. After the race, I was accused of running the engine! "Only possible way you could have gotten so far ahead". A fond memory!

Cheers,

Jim

On the Vendee they, the crew, might be big (they certainly must have big and strong characters - and they are certainly big heroes) but there is only one of them. So not much chance of standing watches (except for the GPS etc - so no different to most cruising boats).

I have not seen the new Volvos but on the Vendee they might need to carry 2 anchors and warps etc, but there is absolutely nowhere to tie off the rode (or nothing I have seen) other than the mast. They also have a bowsprit and restraining wire which means they really need to use a bridle. Very troublesome for one man - so troublesome that I suspect in 2008 no bridle was used, as the warp cut/wore through, and even the second anchor was simply cut off and abandoned (maybe too difficult to retrieve, too deeply set?, by one man?)

Both times anchors, Fortress, were used on the Vendee it was, coincidentally Sandy Bay, Auckland Island (no where near Auckland!) way south of the S Island of NZ. It looks most inhospitable.

It is slightly contradictory that ISAF demand that anchors be carried (as a safety requirement) but they do not also demand that a facility is available to allow sensible deployment and that if chafe is an issue - chafe guards be in place.

Jonathan

[Jim Cate]

Yeah, point taken about singlehanders! But, they are only a small fraction of offshore racers... anyhow, there are times when the oft quoted failure mode of Danforth pattern anchors just isn't a major factor, and their great holding power is.

And race boats lacking any deck cleats is just crazy IMO. One often sees them tied up with the most amazing mess of lines going to masts, winches, stanchions and so on. Not having even one suitable tie point on the foredeck seems unwise... less than a pound would likely be enough (titanium cleat and backing plate), some sort of attachment for a snatch block for chafe resistance would do for that part.

There is surely a place in the world for Danforth patterns, whether they be alloy or steel.

Cheers,

Jim

[JonJo]

If it was an ISAF ruling, about sensible attachment points, then all yachts would be penalised equally. But one of these pop up horn cleats seems sensible and Dyneema sheathing where wear might occur seems hardly onerous (and better than losing your anchor and needing to deploy a second - hardly a recipe for an uninterrupted sleep).

If its a French long distance race on large state of the art yachts they seem commonly short handed.

Jonathan

[DoubleWhisky]

Please let me to share some of my anchoring and anchor sizing experiences. Sorry if it will be trivial and boring for some of You.
Before placing order for my present boat I chartered this kind of boat several times. All the chartered boats came with Lewmar Delta 25 kG with, all chain rode of 80 meters (standard yard equipement – in accordance with Lewmar sizing chart for Delta and in accordance with old 1lb per 1 ft rule).
From time to time I experienced problems with setting it properly. From time to time it dragged.
When ordering my (extensively customized) boat I asked for anchor a size bigger with oversized and longer rode – boat came with Delta 36 kG on 100 meters of chain.
Problems with setting the thing properly not diminished. Dragged less frequently, but still peaceful sleep when anchored was not on the agenda. So I decided to change from Delta to another design.
My boat has hull length of 16 meters exactly, the windage is somewhat more than average thanks to oversized bimini mounted on permanent arch, but moved aft in comparison to production boat, so it has less of the tendency to “sail” on anchor. The empty weight (measured) is 23.000 kG. Adding 1.000 kG for water, 750 kG for diesel, and about 1.500 – 1.750 kG for the rest (including crew and belongings it is normal load for us) it make for total weight of about 26.500 kG.
I went through available anchor sizing charts and found that the are made in different ways, not always easy to compare. Some charts are based on length only, some on displacement only, some on both factors – not easy to compare. From what I found only sizing chart for Rocna was made in user-friendly way, taking into consideration both length and displacement, living small, if any, room for misinterpretation.
Anyway – from my Delta experience (Delta has only length based sizing chart) I decided to choose the weight of my new anchor accordingly to boat weight.
Next I made a comparison of the anchors recommended for my boat in manufacturers sizing charts.
The results are listed below. Where the weight of the boat was included in sizing chart I followed the weight/sizing recommendation. Where my boat was apparently “on the border” between two sizes of manufacturers range I included both sizes. Some old designs I included just for curiosity, trying to fully understand the tables (without success, I have to admit). Just for interest I included below also newer designs not known to me when making a decision some time ago. My original choice was between Rocna, Spade, Supreme, Wasi, SARCA and Kobra 2.


ROCNA 40 kG
SPADE 35/45 kG
MANSON SUPREME 36 kG
MANSON BOSS 36 kG
MANSON PLOUGH 36 kG
MANSON RAY 35 kG
LEWMAR CQR 27 kG
LEWMAR CLAW 50 kG
LEWMAR DELTA 25 kG
SUPER SARCA 36/41,5 kG
SARCA EXCEL 40 kG
MANTUS 47,7/56,8 kG
WASI BUGEL 30 kG
ULTRA 35/45 kG
TERN 40 kG
PLASTIMO 40 kG (general sizing recommendation based on weight of the boat)
PLASTIMO KOBRA 2 20 kG (sizing recommendation based on boat length solely)

FORTRESS Up to 30 kts wind FX-55
Storm FX-85 or FX-125 (heavy, high windage boat)

Some sizing recommendations listed above look strange for me.
Manson plough 36 kG versus Lewmar CQR 27 kG or Manson Ray 35 kG versus Lewmar Claw 50 kG – a bit of mystery.
General Plastimo 40 kG recommendation versus 20 kG recommendation for Plastimo Kobra 2 – rather funny for me.
HHP anchors recommended in even or smaller sizes than SHHP anchors – strange, strange, strange…
May be the sizing charts are not really what they pretend to be, but just marketing tools?
Reflecting different marketing strategies of different producers? I have not a clue.

After few weeks with a strong headache I finally decided to buy 40 kG Rocna for the following reasons:
· The sizing chart was clear and understandable for me.
· I didn’t want to change chain size and the windlass and I believed it to be on a safe side with anchor not heavier than 40 kG (with certified HT chain).
· I didn’t want stainless steel or mild steel anchor.
· I thought the roll bar is not a bad idea for my cruising grounds (mostly sand, mud and clay bottoms, no grass, no kelp, rarely really thick weed)
· Off counter availability (40 kG Rocna, NZ made, sat waiting in chandlery)

I have FX-85 and FX-125 in the lockers also. First came with new boat from the yard, second was added when I upgraded to Rocna.

Now I have the bower of exactly right size – according to the manufacturer sizing chart.
To be on the safe side I contacted Rocna before buying, sent them data, description and photos of the boat, and they recommended 40 kG for Mediterranean use. They mentioned, by the way, that for regions where winds of over 60 kts sustained are real possibility on anchorage, the 55 kG is the anchor to be considered for my boat.

For the beginning I experienced some problems with setting the Rocna properly. On their old www site I found however the advice to set it gently, not applying much of the force initially. It is entirely doable even in strong wind – just by applying some revs forward, against the wind. The setting procedure consumes few minutes and after the Rocna is holding like a rock.

As You well know the bower in the Mediterranean has two main uses – to anchor out and as a part of Med style mooring, with short or long lines aft, to the quay or to the shore. The Med mooring make the anchor to work differently, as the bow is often swinging from side to side with considerable force, and the rode must be tight to avoid clashing with other boats. Your anchor must also deal with sometime violent wash - from passing by fast ferries - entering unprotected harbours and, in some places at least, delivering enough of energy to literally smash the boat against the wall. It is my feeling that often the Med mooring is more testing for the anchor arrangement and for the anchor itself, than anchoring out in the same wind force. Crossed anchors are just facts of life there, as well as poorly anchored - but well tied to the wall - boats pushing You sideways. It was not rare for me to keep the boats on both sides of me on my hook in strong winds, tied to my forward cleats, after their anchors (mainly Deltas) dragged all way to their bows. I can not count how many times my rode was catched by anchors of other boats, but loosing the chain to allow them to free their hooks was always enough. Properly set, Rocna was immovable thing and I needed to reset only twice, before I learned the proper setting procedure for her.
Rocna failed me only on one occasion (saying nothing about problems caused by myself initially, before I learnt proper setting procedure). I was moored (Med style) next to Amel 54 with extremely nice French couple on board (somehow I happen to really like the Amel family – never yet met unpleasant people on these boats). There were six more boats tied to the small harbor wall – 35 to 42 ft each, all six lousily anchored. I was first from the starboard, next to harbour entrance. Bottom was quite thin sand on chalk, mediocre holding only. When the wind from port bow arose, Amel started to drag its 30 kG Wasi Bugel (yard provided anchor, sized in accordance with producer sizing chart, totally inadequate in my opinion, having much less holding area pound for pound versus Rocna, Spade or Sarca, on the boat of the same windage and weight as my own). For some time I kept both boats on my hook and Bugel stopped to drag. But after not a long time all other six boats dragged, and like a cards, one by one, turned the bows to starboard, literally laying on each other and all together on us. To keep this pressure from the side was to much on such a bottom, and Rocna, without a possibility to bury itself deep because of hard chalk, started to drag by about meter per hour. After consulting with neighbours on the Amel we left the harbor – we first, Amel just in our wake. Interesting thing is that no single of the six boats lying on us made an effort to reanchor when we and Amel fought for holding. After we left, they were just pinned to the wall in complete mess…. And we didn’t left without warning them… And I’m not so sure if I really can call this whole situation a Rocna failure. We got out of the mess unscratched.

Generally I’m satisfied with recommended size Rocna for my boat and my prevailing anchor conditions. But I must admit I didn’t experienced winds above fifty something kts when Med moored or anchored out with Rocna. Retrieving the Rocna after prolonged blow or after several days of being Med moored in the harbor with a plenty of wash from ferries is not very easy, but perfectly doable without applying excessive forces. Follow the dentist routine for extracting the tooth and anchor is free.

Is bigger the better? Yes, it is, in some way. As I mentioned, for extreme conditions Rocna manufacturers advised me to go bigger. If not the necessity to replace all the arrangement on bow (chain, windlass, probably cleats, may be bow roller) I would go this way happily. Super strong squalls happen more and more often in the Med…

After all my - very limited of course - experiences and investigations, after looking at different boats with different anchoring solutions in different circumstances, after spending lot of hours over siing charts, I came, just for my self use, to the following conclusion regarding anchor sizing for today average monohull boats, let’s say between 12 and 18 meters:
· Take the boat length in meters and multiply it by two and half
· Take the boat displacement in metric tons and multiply it by two
· Higher number of the two is the weight of the anchor in kilograms
· If this weight fall between sizes in the chosen manufacturer range – bigger should be the one.
Such an anchor – of proper and modern construction, should be adequate for all conditions, excluding may be named storm in full strength. For such a case better to have some backup, like oversized Fortress anchor(s) waiting in the locker.
For use in areas not so prone to extreme winds – like a Med – one size smaller anchor will be O.K. for 99,99 % of time, just as it worked fine for me, but somebody can argue that this 0,01 % is what really counts and I can not challenge such a reasoning.
Of course – this is only my own guidance, good for what I know, what I experienced and for cruising grounds familiar to me. I doubt if anybody can give the recipe good for all areas, all boats, all bottoms…

By the way – I can not understand this repetitive adage in some posts in this and other anchoring threads: “the anchor too big (to heavy) to set”.
For me only anchor too big to set (for a given boat) can be an anchor so huge, that the boat can not force it to move, anchor so heavy, that for the boat it acts as dead mooring block. If boat can move the anchor, the anchor should set, period. If You need the tug to set the anchor, it is the problem of design, not of size. In matter of fact I think that any anchor will be completely impractical for given boat (just because of dimensions, weight inoperable for boat equipment like windlass etc), at much lower size than size difficult to move enough to set. The one and only exception I can see is Fortress. It is extremely lightweight for the flukes size, so You need to force her to set. Fair trade for me. But Fortress is not too heavy to set, but opposite – too light to set properly without applying considerable force. If You need to force heavy steel anchor to set it does not mean it is too heavy. It only means it is poorly designed, poorly built or both.

By the way – may be the question was covered somewhere, but I missed it – has anybody here first hand experience how SARCA (Super and Excel) anchors work in kelp/grass/thick weed?
Regarding the holding, not regarding being environmentally friendly? I know that this is slightly off – topic, but not to the end. I’m looking around for secondary (not oversized) anchor for such a seabeds and do not want to go with it the BIB way.

Sorry for my rotten English. Hope it was readable for those patient enough to try.
Regards to all.

[estarzinger]

DoubleWhisky, that's a very nice post. It summarizes a lot of thing, while not glazing over the details.


I don't remember seeing this link posted: ANCHORWATCH- THE THEORY OF ANCHORING

It's sort of an interesting way to look at things.

I ran across it when look at load cell ideas.