Anchors - Bigger is Better ?

[congo]

Ocean Girl Wrote:

Egads, you REALLY hate concave anchors... Now they are distroying the world! Though i have a feeling you wrote this to satisfy the devilish side in you, i cant help but take the bait

Just breathing, we disrupt the environment. Anchoring on corals heads, I thought that is why anchoring got(is) such a bad rap..? But I have been out of the loop a bit. Care to give source specific to concave anchor ban? And I would think dragging anchors cause more disruption, and imagine double the disruption with two anchors

I really think you have great insight, though a bit rabid at times, you have pulled more depth out of a topic than I thought possible.

Cheers,
Erika.



Crickeys Erica your criticism of JonJo is a bit rich. No one said they are destroying the world but for gods sakes they are destroying many anchorages,when we launched our original concave Sarca some 18 years back, it was given, not sold to a number of fishing charter guy's for trials.

These trials took part in Westernport Victoria, prolific whiting grounds, it only took 3 days of deploying that original concave Sarca before I had a phone call from one of the charter boats, he simply said take it away and redesign it, we dont want these shovels in Westernport, we have only just been successful in getting rid of the netting boats, we dont want to destroy these feeding grounds.

What he meant is much of their fishing is done on high tide along the main chanels that are covered in weed, he went on to say the anchor sets well but when the current starts to run we are plugging out, and mate each time we are ripping out a huge clump of weed and mud, we dont want these things in here, can anyone imagine how I felt,I thought we were on a winner.

Any way we must have set a a precedent as if the charter operators see you deploying a concave design in their whiting grounds chances are you will cop a handfull of sinkers, after all it is their lively hood.

Now honestly there are a lot of intelligent people on this form, how does one think this anchor would ever reset once broken out in wind or tide changes, this is clean mud, add a bit of weed and you have no hope, because it cannot displace this type of sea floor it will plug once full.

Keep in mind this anchor has already traveled the distance to the surface, maybe I should have tried another approach to the charter operators, this lot would be full of free bait, what a saving , may even score a coulple of Eels.



Erika, you made the statement, dragging anchors do more damage, well look at the evidence, the above photo is really the fate of the scoop, the evidence regardless of this huge mud ball is riddled through out this forum, what about the weed balls, what about, concave wont set in weed, thats what most of you are saying, one post explaining they spent an hour cutting the weed out of his Rocna that refused to set, dragging dragging dragging.

Further there has been one replacing his Rocna with an Excel, one going back to a Bruce, on the Excel thread G Mac from NZ explained he was very much involved with one of the concave anchor designs, he then went on to say Super Sarca was one of their top selling anchors, the Excel was possibly his best seller, sorry moderators but I have to draw on past support from the locked threads as I have no one here this time.

You know I really think some of you are in complete denial over your concave concept, someone said on this thread there is a lot of slippery wax on the floor from smart marketing , well I think you are right, just maybe some of that wax is still on the concave fluke making the weed very slippery.

With all the evidence above JonJo comments has stirred you Erika, be advised JonJo's personal testing of most anchor designs including new gen concave anchors has produced some very interesting results, and yes we have also been in the firing line of some of his testing. Believe me he has no hate for concave designs as you would have seen many times his complimentary remarks from his findings on the Spade.
Regards
Rex

[Ocean Girl]

I hear ya, and if I came off a bit exasperated, then it must be the anchor thread, sorry if I offended anyone.

Anchoring bans, didn't they start before the new generations even came out? Do you have a source that singles out concave anchors as a particular habitat destroyer, compared to other anchors?

Thanks,
Erika

[congo]

Yes Ericka you are right.

Anchorring bans have been on the increase, the launch of concave has given ammunittion for the green groops, the visuals now with concave means you no longer have to dive to find environment destruction, the evidence is hanging offer your boat.

Further, If you look around our estauries you will find a high concentration of Parks and wild life officers siffting, testing, reporting, unforuately they do not have to look far anymore with the help of concave , just walk along the weed beds at low tide and you will see evidence like never before, Quite large holes and and broken weed beds. If you are unfortunate someone will pull up their concave whilst these parks guy's are having a google.

No they wont single out concave for this distruction, imagine the out cry, they all make a big noise about reducing a problem, if the problem is to big , lets just ban all anchors in this environmently fragile, pristeen, glorious, sensitive the ******** goes on and on.

If you want to have an allnight party you keep the noise down, if you are lowd and attract attention then it will be closed down, that is my fear with concave as it is happening.

Regards Rex.

[Ocean Girl]

Very good point.

[Panope]

So how about a humongous, 5X oversize concave anchor that you do NOT set. The thing just sits there until the rare gale comes along and then sets itself when you need it!

This is my best attempt at humor.

Steve

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by Ocean Girl

I hear ya, and if I came off a bit exasperated, then it must be the anchor thread, sorry if I offended anyone.

Anchoring bans, didn't they start before the new generations even came out? Do you have a source that singles out concave anchors as a particular habitat destroyer, compared to other anchors?

Thanks,
Erika

No offense taken, and you did not come over as exasperated, quite mild actually, compared to?

The anchoring bans came in because of, well, anchoring. A State, we are Federal here, a middle management level environmental officer was spouting off to me that in his view concave should be banned in sensitive areas, though other anchors might be acceptable. I mentioned this would be unenforceable and very difficult to legislate for. Further I pointed out that it might be difficult to advise specific owners of the differences (ie how would you indicate to yachtowners, where would you put the signs). He backed of, a bit sullen (as I think he thought he a promotion making policy up his sleeve). Sadly the failure of the option of differentiating concave from the rest probably means we will all be banned.

I mentioned Hole in the Wall, Jervis Bay, they actually police the yachts there with both a motor launch and 4WD from the beach. I've not heard of anyone being fined but we anchored in 10m, but it was nearer high tide and were politely told to move such that at low tide we would be in 10m of water. Its serious stuff.



But the point remains the green lobby here has its teeth into Marine Parks, they have already removed historic anchorages from public anchoring access. Proud concave owners feeling good because a clod of seabed indicates they have had a well set anchor is not the way to go, particularly if there is an alternative, think Spade? maybe Boss. No-one sees the damage a dragging anchor makes, its under the water. A clod of seabed on an anchor on a bow roller is visible for all to see.

[congo]

Gee Panope, going by this thread I thought that is what they are using? Two sizes bigger.
Regards Rex

[noelex 77]

A lot of the seabed "damage" is caused by the chain but it we focus on the anchor itself the biggest factor is speed in setting and the ability not to drag.

If you dive and look at distance to set, there is a remarkable difference between the better anchors like the MS, Rocna, Spade (concave) and the poor performers like CQR (convex)
A CQR,even with the right technique will typically drag and can leave a furrow for 10m, or so, before it sets.
The better anchors will set in less than a metre.

The Delta and Kobra designs (convex) will set quickly, but sometimes slowly drag under the surface in stronger wind.

By far the biggest damage is caused by a fully dragging anchor. The higher holding power of the concave designs is big help in reducing the chance of this widespread damage.

If Australia was considering banning concave anchors, that is shameful. It is exactly the wrong thing to do.

I wonder where they got the idea to do that?

[Exile]

What's the natural regeneration time of this purported damage to the seabed? A lifetime, 10 years, the day after tomorrow?

[Panope]

Originally Posted by congo

Gee Panope, going by this thread I thought that is what they are using? Two sizes bigger.
Regards Rex

Actually, my anchor IS a 2 sizes oversize Manson Supreme. Because I set it with an undersized boat, I normally do not get a giant glob of mud on the anchor.

Assuming a calm anchorage, I wonder if there is a direct correlation between glob size and engine horsepower?

Maybe, if we assume that the O.P.s original point is correct (that oversize anchors are not safe), we should size our anchors based on engine horsepower or the ability to apply reverse thrust?

Steve

[Snowpetrel]

Displacement to Anchor weight ratio = Disp (kg)/Anchor weight (kg)

Displacement to Anchor Area = Displacement (tonnes)/(Anchor fluke area (cm^2)/1000)^(3/2)

Windage to anchor area ratio = windage (m^2) / (Anchor fluke area (cm^2)/1000)

Windage to anchor circumference = windage (m^2)/(circumference (m))^2

Results are here for my boat and also a guess at what a larger boat might look like


more info here

[congo]

Noelex Wrote:

Anchorright are naturally trying hard to promote convex anchors.

This is what Rex had to say about the reasons for the choice of convex design. Make up your own mind.

"When we originally developed the Sarca anchor we developed it in a concave design. It worked extremely well, but back in those days we didn't have winches......My son said to me ...... Gee dad, these anchors are working fantastic , but I cannot pull this up.
So we turned it the other way. "




Now Noelex I cannot let you get away with this, you have got to stop this, selecting my quotes to form a contex that does not, in most cases reflect my comments.

You are a naugthy boy, I have been told ,warned, intimidated by your moderators to stick to commenting on the tool, nothing else, so take five and smack your hand, gee I am polite, You know I have been mentally robbed of some of my dearest thoughts because of the constant pounding I copped from you and Cotemar, now on locked threads.

An example of my mental sufferring .

Many years ago approx at the time our Sarca anchor was released an add came on TV featuring a very pretty scantily dressed young lady with ants crawling all over her, she had accompanying her an ant eater by the name of Rex,(True Story) the ant eater with his long tounge did a great job of eating the ants around her bikini line, anyway at the end of the add she called out to the ant eater, "Sic em Rex!".

My mate sitting beside me turned and said,Rex if you come back reincarnated make sure you are that ant eater,not a bloody inventor.

Well I carried that thought with me for many years and when the chips were down I used to think of my mates comments and I would have a chuckle, Sadly because of my experience with Cotemar and Noelex on the Excel thread and all the locked ones, my pleasent memory of that ant eater add and my mates comments, being reincarnated as one got me thinking, I thought to myself well that ant eater , his fame was not going to last forever and sooner or later he will be relocated in the bush and have to go back to crossing roads.

Then the most dreadfull thought crossed my mind, I could picture Cotemar and Noelex roaring up the road on harlys, totaly destroyed a good memory that I carried for years, cant think for the life of me what that add was promoting as I can only remember her saying "Sic em Rex!"

Yes I lie, no Cotemar or Noelex will ever erase that memory, but I can tell you if my missus discovers this she will be saying "Sick Rex" if any one is interested you should be able to google that add, if you do let me know what it was she was promoting.

Regards Rex.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by congo

if you do let me know what it was she was promoting.
.

It was Antz Pantz if I remember correctly and yes what a great piece of marketing.
I picture the model more than ant eater when trying to remember that one

[congo]

Well from now on Noelex, you can think of me, if stop doing that concave shuffle and get into the convex swing, you never know you and I could become friends.

Regards Rex.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by congo

Well from now on Noelex, you can think of me, if stop doing that concave shuffle and get into the convex swing, you never know you and I could become friends.

Regards Rex.

Now Rex, you are trying to destroy the fantasies I had as lad.

No problem with the friendship. Next time I see you at a boat show I will introduce myself and you can knock my block off buy me a beer.