Anchors - Bigger is Better ?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Andrew Troup

Yes, but my point was about the knowledge, rather than the gear.

I was making a pitch about the advisability of knowing the ins and outs of using smaller spare anchors, sometimes more than one at a time, if the main anchor was lost.

And to consider strategies ahead of time, eg: If the spare is a Fortress, it's pretty desirable to back it up with another anchor (or shorelines) unless you can be certain the wind will only come from one quarter.

I'm not sure if it's relevant not to have lost an anchor ... I've never had a mountain hut burn down, but I sure keep my boots by my bunk ...

Well, a few comments:

1. Keeping your boots by your bunk is one thing. But keeping two spare pairs, and lugging them up and down the mountain, in case two successive mountain huts burn down?

2. I agree that it's good to practice with your spare anchor in different conditions. It's also good to know the limitations of your spare anchor, whatever it is -- Fortress, for example, needs to have fluke angle reset for soft mud, and some question whether it will release in a wind or tide shift, although the maker claims that the Fortress is no more prone to this than any other anchor, and I have never personally seen a Fortress release unexpectedly.

3. Using more than one anchor at a time is fraught with risk of fouling and tangling. Some people swear by it, but I personally just don't do it and wouldn't do it, unless the second anchor is a stern anchor set specifically to hold the boat into the seas when wind and seas or wind and current are not aligned. IYMMV.

4. I think one Fortress spare is enough unless you're sailing far away from civilization, and somewhere where there is a higher risk of losing an anchor (boulder-strewn bottom). If you lose your main anchor, then go into port and buy a new one. Meanwhile you'll be fine with the Fortress -- how long will you be forced to anchor out on your spare before you go in? Just stand anchor watch or set an anchor alarm, and avoid dangerous anchorages, until you've replaced your main anchor. Another argument for this is that most times you lose your main anchor you lose your rode with it. If carrying a third anchor is needless weight, then carrying a spare all chain rode is ten-fold (my primary rode weighs 330 kg). This hurts sailing performance a lot. I don't think it's worth it if you are within a few days' sail of civilization. That's why I'm giving away the Delta.


All just MHO. Everyone, obviously, has to decide for himself.


Year before last on my summer cruise my windlass broke down (the motor housing rusted through from the inside and fell apart). That was when I still had the 55kg Rocna anchor -- 121 pounds, which cannot possibly be used without a windlass. We were in North Brittany -- a wild place with fairly long stretches of desolate coast between harbors. Well, it was irritating, but it did not spoil the cruise by any means. We simply carried on and went into ports -- Morlaix, Lezardrieux, St. Malo, St. Peter Port. At St. Peter Port, the new windlass motor and gearbox I ordered caught up with us. It was no big deal. And an anchor and rode is a whole lot easier to source -- is a whole lot more generic -- than a special order 24v windlass motor for an obsolete Lewmar windlass.

[Teeto]

The name is Teeto not Ceeto. We have replaced our 60lb Manson Dupreme with a 42 kg Stockless. So we have gone up in weight which we think is appropriate for the design, which specifically does well in weed. The MS was faultless on the east coast of Oz. The Stockless we have now been using exclusively this Summer/Autumn with 100% success in weedy terrain. Sets every time first time.

[noelex 77]

The other factor that needs to considered is how likely you are to loose an anchor. I very rarely anchor in water I cannot free dive and find and release the anchor. I normally carry scuba gear (unfortunatly at the moment its US).
There is still the very slight risk of needing to cut the anchor away in deep water or sailing in areas that are unwise/impossible to dive, but the risk of loosing the primary anchor is small.
I still would feel uncomfortable without a minimum compliment of a primary, Fortress, and another spare anchor, but my spare anchor is nowhere near as good as my primary, so its a bit of token effort.

[Kettlewell]

My own arsenal includes at least three anchors that could hold the boat in at least gale force conditions. My main anchor is used every day, on all chain, or mostly chain rode if the water gets too deep (hasn't happened yet). I also carry two Fortress FX-23 anchors. One gets used a fair bit in a Bahamian moor or in other two-anchor sets, and the other gets rarely used, but has been down during tropical revolving storms. If I lost the main anchor, which I could see happening (but hasn't yet in 35+ years of cruising), I would be perfectly fine anchoring with the two Fortress anchors in a two-anchor set most of the time. I have had occasion over the years where I needed to warp the big boat a long distance and having two lighter anchors on long nylon rodes is very useful for this. You put out one as far as you can reach. Then pull your boat up to it. Put out the other in the dinghy as far as you can. Etc. I have moved a boat quite a ways doing this a few times. There are many parts of the world where it might be quite some time before you could get another decent anchor if you lost one. I had no trouble selling a spare anchor when down in Cartagena, and at a much better price than I would have gotten in the USA.

[JonJo]

I would hate to see the thread going for a wander, but if people do not lose their anchors and from looking in marinas most people are sticking with CQR/Bruce clones and Deltas how on earth do the likes of Manson, Fortress Anchor Right, Tie-Down and Spade stay in business. The anchors from these manufacturers do not go on new yachts, they are kitted out with Deltas and I virtually never see one of these new gen anchors on a new yacht (and with the GFC my understanding is that new yacht sales are few and far between). Most run-about fishermen and those not reading CF will be buying cheap Chinese copies. But the chandlers are full of anchors (some of which are brand name and big) Mantus think it a great new start business, CMP obviously thought it a great business. There is spare cash about for some of them to advertise on CF, YBW or sponsor Morgans Cloud and given the exposure they get on these threads that seems something of a waste of money!

So what's the story and if people are upgrading - why don't we see them.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by Teeto

The name is Teeto not Ceeto. We have replaced our 60lb Manson Dupreme with a 42 kg Stockless. So we have gone up in weight which we think is appropriate for the design, which specifically does well in weed. The MS was faultless on the east coast of Oz. The Stockless we have now been using exclusively this Summer/Autumn with 100% success in weedy terrain. Sets every time first time.

Teeto,

Thanks for the update. Did you buy the Marsh, Industrial Spring stockless in the end? I had seen another design, exactly the same concept, but have no idea who might have made it (but I guess it would have been made in Oz). It was on a big Riv being delivered from Adelaide to the Gold Coast. The 'flukes' were a simple 100mm round rod, bent at 90 deg, to form an 'open' square and the ends devlishly sharp. I did not take note of how the shank fitted to the flukes, bent rod. Remind me, how big is your yacht?

Sorry if I might have misspelt your name incorrectly, certainly nothing personal

[Kettlewell]

I am not privy to the finances of any anchor companies, but I would venture to guess that they are mostly pretty small enterprises. You see lots of anchor companies come and go. In another thread we are discussing the whys of the disappearance of genuine Bruce anchors, and from my own observations they were probably the #2 anchor company after CQR back in the day. Some, like Fortress, sell quite a few for various government activities. Thousands of anchors were purchased when we had the big Gulf oil spill for things like containment booms. Over here the much larger market is the powerboat segment, by many times. Sailboats are a sideline for most of these companies, and a very small one. I once visited a powerboat plant that churns out 10,000 boats per year--one factory turning out more than three times the number of sailboats sold in the entire country each year.

[Steve Pope]

There is only one reason to upgrade and that is after your current anchor has let you down enough times that you no longer feel secure. In my travels around the pacific it is rare that you see the older types of anchor as a bower anchor, yes there s the odd Bruce / CQR etc but mainly those that rely on their anchors day after day have kept abreast of developments and replaced accordingly.
The above remarks exclude the smaller (under 100 feet) fishing boats which seem to carry anything that may have been called an anchor at some previous time.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by JonJo

sponsor Morgans Cloud

They have written a lot of articles on anchoring. It is helpful to know any potential bias when evaluating this information. It would be better to provide some details so members can evaluate if this has an influence on their writing.

Personally I have always found their advice absolutely spot on. They give excellent practical advice from people that have actually done some long distance, worldwide, cruising. When equipping a crusing boat I would encourage everyone to read their articles and act on their words of wisdom.

Originally Posted by JonJo

So what's the story and if people are upgrading - why don't we see them.

Because they out crusing, not in the marinas.
In the anchorages of the world its rare to meet a cruising that has not changed the anchor that was originally supplied when the boat was built. Some just go for a larger anchor of the same design, but many are now using new generation anchors, particuarly when they reach a sailing area with hard sand where the older generation anchors don't work well.

[JonJo]

Noelex,

There was no intention to suggest that a sponsor influenced any of Morgan's Cloud articles, in fact many of the articles on anchoring simply do not mention or allude to any of the sponsors. Equally there was meant to be no suggestion that an advertiser might influence anyone on/in CF - that would be unethical.

My point was there is enough money to advertise, or sponsor, and given the level of exposure on CF some of this money seems unnecessarily spent. Consequently anchor making seems a profitable enough business, for whatever reason (though many have fallen by the wayside).

Most, virtually all, the cruising yachts I have seen in the last 24 months in Mauritius, Seychelles, Cape Town, La Reunion flying courtesy flags had really old fashioned anchors. I saw not one Rocna, Supreme, Excel (though the Fortress were probably in a locker).

[JonJo]

Noelex.

This year


Tom and Vicky Jackson of Sunstone fame won the RCC Challenge Cup for their 19,000 mile Pacific Circuit, they use a CQR They visited 76 harbours and anchorages. It might seem pretty wimpish to cruise the Pacific, but they took in the Aleutions and Alaska.

Bob Shepton won the ICC Decanter for his 6,059nm cruise from Scotland to Alaska via the NW Passage in his Westerly 33 Dodo's Delight, he uses a CQR.

Jo Winter won the Cruising Club Bowl in her Island Packet 45 Brother Wind, for a cruise on both sides of the Malaysian peninsular, she uses a CQR.

This is getting repetitive

Fergus and Kay Quinlan won the OCC award for sailing their self built steel yacht, Pylades, round the world, they use a CQR (and carry a genuine Danforth).

We met a UK couple cruising the world at Wilson's Prom 2 years ago, their most modern anchor was a Danforth, they carried 2 (both monsters), their main anchor was a CQR and they carried a fishermans (under their forepeak berth).

Not quite the same but: The Clipper Round the World this year, 15 x 70' yachts will carry two Deltas each.

[foolishsailor]

I may be one of those that just uses what he has.

When i bought the boat she came with 5 anchors: 2 cqrs, 1 fortress, one massive collapsible fishermans and 1 original bruce. I have no preference for a cqr but just use what i have.

I have a manual windless that i have a love hate relationship with as well and i am on a 44' boat.

I love the new anchor designs but i have never had trouble with my current setup except for the occasional difficulty setting the cqr.

I have almost never dragged even when boats around me have. While i recognize the superiority of the new anchors i just cant justify upgrading when i am generally happy with my current anchor suite.

I think this would be true for many sailors.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

"Morgan's cloud . . . They give excellent practical advice from people that have actually done some long distance, worldwide, cruising."

Good people, friends, very well written blog . . . But their sailing has been N. Atlantic, not "worldwide" and that does definitely color/shape their opinions.

Regarding carrying spare anchors it does depend on where you are cruising . . . Both how likely you are too lose one and how difficult it will be to replace. Just for instance, the town anchorage at Christmas Island is a quite deep bolder filled anchorage that loves to trap anchors, and if you lose your main anchor here and need to divert somewhere (Bali or Australia) to replace it you might well miss the seasonal window for getting to S Africa. On the other hand if you are cruising say the med you can either hire a diver, or get a new main anchored delivered the next day.

[JonJo]

I hate to join the throng of advertisers but these shackles of which you all post so much, but maybe there is nothing else?

How does the performance of the shackle match the strength of the chain you are using. Am I right in thinking the shackles are hugely better than the chain?

Part of the Bigger is Better concept is that, say, instead of 2 x 20kg anchors one uses 1 x 33kg model but that there is no need to increase chain size, so you could be using 8mm or 10mm chain. Surely if it is essential to use a 33kg anchor one is doing this partially because it will have that 'extra' capacity, which means extra load - so why is there no need to increase chain size (8mm looks a bit whimpy for a 33kg anchor). The advantage of the 2 x 20kg anchors is that we can use 2 x 8mm chain (and the fancy shackles). The disadvantage of the 10mm chain is more weight in the bow (the spare 8mm chain can be stored amidships) and you need a new gypsy, maybe new winch.

I'm trying to ignore the debate on why its so difficult to deploy 2 rodes - simply looking at strength, and maybe weight (which you could offset by making your second anchor a Fortress).

[sailorboy1]

I have an oversize anchor, but stayed with the 5/16" chain. I didn't really give much thought to needing to go to 3/8" just because I wanted an anchor that was more likely to not drag. I figure that the only way a chain is ever going to break is with a shock load and y0ou shouldn't experience that because you used a proper snubber.

Wasn't there a recent thread about anyone breaking a chain, and which I don't think anyone said their chain had broken except for if it was really worn?

I think that my cleats etc will rip out before the chain goes. I don't see any reason to have a rode system beyound that point.

But I ain't no expert!