Anchors - Bigger is Better ?

[nigel1]

Originally Posted by cal40john

This is a private video, you have no permission to watch it.

I've removed the post, I did think this would work, obviously not

[lancelot9898]

If I'm anchoring in a thin layer of sand with a solid rock surface beneath, it might be argued that the smaller anchor is better considering that it could be completely buried whereas the larger anchor would only be partiacially buried. The holding might be better with an anchor completly buried. The argument then becomes that with my 50 hp diesel(even with the good old max prop), can I sufficiently bury that huge anchor in other bottoms.

[Kenomac]

This entire thread seems to me is basically folks trying to rationalize their purchase of the smaller, less expensive anchor on the anchor recommendation chart, rather than spending a little extra cash for the added weight, holding power and peace of mind the larger anchor offers.

[nigel1]

Originally Posted by cal40john

This is a private video, you have no permission to watch it.

I'll try again,

Private Video on Vimeo


Private Video on Vimeo

and the password is nigel

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by lancelot9898

If I'm anchoring in a thin layer of sand with a solid rock surface beneath, it might be argued that the smaller anchor is better considering that it could be completely buried whereas the larger anchor would only be partiacially buried.

On the contrary this sort of holding ground is one of the strong arguments for a bigger anchor. The wide fluke will have greater holding power even when not buried very far.
This is not just theory. Small even good quality anchors will not hold with a shallow layer of sand over rock in stronger wind. Go large enough and eventually you reach the stage where even in this shallow sand layer there is enough grip to oppose the wind force.

Originally Posted by lancelot9898

The holding might be better with an anchor completly buried. The argument then becomes that with my 50 hp diesel(even with the good old max prop), can I sufficiently bury that huge anchor in other bottoms.

The engine only provides the initial set. All anchors will bury deeper more as the wind becomes stronger. There is no problem in providing an initial set even with a very oversized anchor. Full reverse on most sailboats is only equivalent to 30-35 knots of wind regardless of the anchor size.
A larger anchor will have a greater reserve before its maximum holding power is reached.

[sailorboy1]

Bigger is better

The only ones that don't think are small

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

This entire thread seems to me is basically folks trying to rationalize their purchase of the smaller, less expensive anchor on the anchor recommendation chart, rather than spending a little extra cash for the added weight, holding power and peace of mind the larger anchor offers.

Anyone buying a Spade (or Ultra) is not buying a less expensive anchor And if you want holding power - go Fortress, weight does not come into it. And if you want to maximise surface area (or effectiveness of larger) per $ then go for a Mantus.

Jonathan

[Jubilee39]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Anyone buying a Spade (or Ultra) is not buying a less expensive anchor And if you want holding power - go Fortress, weight does not come into it. And if you want to maximise surface area (or effectiveness of larger) per $ then go for a Mantus.

Jonathan

Having experienced several hurricanes in the Caribbean, Luis and Lennie all the ones in between in St Maarten and Ivan in Grenada and a couple more in Fiji I personally have a low opinion of the Fortress. I have set both a 27 high tensile Danforth and a bigger Fortress in same conditions only to have the Fortress drag but be held by the Danforth? In each case I dove on the anchors, I put longer heavier chain and more scope in Ivan on the Fortress. After Luis the Danforth buried itself so I could not get to the shackle following the rode at arms length. It took hours to retrieve it. Similar situation in Ivan. Both cases the fortress was barely set. I almost lost my boat in Bertha because my anchor rode parted on a CQR I was riding on and the fortress tripped and would not reset. I was able to deploy the danforth I had in standby and got the boat stopped 50 yards from a lee shore. I still keep the fortress only because it is stowable but place my security on Danforth if expecting a constant strain. The CQR has never let me down in a blow except when the rode parted on an old rope chain splice but only rarely does it have problem setting.

[JonJo]

Jubilee39, the Danforth slipped below my horizon (and is not often mentioned - yours is a refreshing inclusion) and I should somehow have included it - and Manson's Boss. I was simply trying to provoke the thought that spending more money on a bigger anchor (of the same design) or just spending money or buying a heavier anchor (of any design) was a panacea to better holding.

Interestingly many carry a Fortress and describe it as their 'storm anchor'. Which does suggest that they think it reliable.

As I have expressed, I'm not sufficiently convinced that any anchor is perfect, they are all a compromise. Some might compromise more than others - but enduring suppliers demonstrate acceptability. Reptitively - I'd rather have 2 different anchors of about the right size (though we, personally, might carry more as we would include alloy) that can cope with different environments than one monster with nothing else to fall back on.

And the premise of many is - one monster (commonly 30%-50% bigger in weight than the charts suggest) anchor is better. Which is fine by me, its an individual's choice - but its an argument I find flawed (for a variety of reasons) and others also find flawed (whatever they might post) - as they carry that 'storm anchor'.

Cost is a red herring, a simple diversion.

Jonathan

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Anyone buying a Spade (or Ultra) is not buying a less expensive anchor And if you want holding power - go Fortress, weight does not come into it. And if you want to maximise surface area (or effectiveness of larger) per $ then go for a Mantus.

Jonathan

When I mentioned buying the less expensive, smaller anchor on the anchor chart to save money, I was referring to the same brand of anchor and not comparing any one anchor to a different brand or type. Just a difference in weight.

Bigger is better when comparing the same brand and type.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

When I mentioned buying the less expensive, smaller anchor on the anchor chart to save money, I was referring to the same brand of anchor and not comparing any one anchor to a different brand or type. Just a difference in weight.

Bigger is better when comparing the same brand and type.

My comment regarding Spade and Ultra was slightly tongue in cheek

But buying two correctly sized, not smaller, anchors is not cheaper than one bigger one and gives a fall back if you lose one, gives an option to use a different design if the other design is not perfect, allows deployment of 2 anchors in a 'V' to stop veering when the wind is forecast strong and steady in one direction. If your second or third anchors is alloy (Fortress seems the obvious choice) it is possible to deploy exactly where you want it from a dinghy. If the anchor chart suggests 20kg and you go for monster, say 35kg and you carry 2 anchors - I challenge anyone to deploy with complete safety from a dinghy (in fact if its not on a bow roller its basically going to be difficult to deploy - and how many yachts under 45' come with 2 bow rollers?)

I wonder how many of the bigger is better faction carry 2 anchors (both of which are 'new gen' and I wonder how many of the second anchors meet that same BIB criteria - and if not why not, people do report losing anchors - even if only temporarily. And where do they keep that second anchor?

Jonathan

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by JonJo

My comment regarding Spade and Ultra was slightly tongue in cheek

But buying two correctly sized, not smaller, anchors is not cheaper than one bigger one and gives a fall back if you lose one, gives an option to use a different design if the other design is not perfect, allows deployment of 2 anchors in a 'V' to stop veering when the wind is forecast strong and steady in one direction. If your second or third anchors is alloy (Fortress seems the obvious choice) it is possible to deploy exactly where you want it from a dinghy. If the anchor chart suggests 20kg and you go for monster, say 35kg and you carry 2 anchors - I challenge anyone to deploy with complete safety from a dinghy (in fact if its not on a bow roller its basically going to be difficult to deploy - and how many yachts under 45' come with 2 bow rollers?)

I wonder how many of the bigger is better faction carry 2 anchors (both of which are 'new gen' and I wonder how many of the second anchors meet that same BIB criteria - and if not why not, people do report losing anchors - even if only temporarily. And where do they keep that second anchor?

Jonathan

Well, I do.. a Guardian G-125. Stows in a bag in the aft lazarette. I rather like the Fortress or Guardian as a backup, since they are lighter and so can be manhandled a bit easier. In the case of Fortress 'bigger' doesn't necessarily mean heavier.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by JonJo

My comment regarding Spade and Ultra was slightly tongue in cheek

But buying two correctly sized, not smaller, anchors is not cheaper than one bigger one and gives a fall back if you lose one, gives an option to use a different design if the other design is not perfect, allows deployment of 2 anchors in a 'V' to stop veering when the wind is forecast strong and steady in one direction. If your second or third anchors is alloy (Fortress seems the obvious choice) it is possible to deploy exactly where you want it from a dinghy. If the anchor chart suggests 20kg and you go for monster, say 35kg and you carry 2 anchors - I challenge anyone to deploy with complete safety from a dinghy (in fact if its not on a bow roller its basically going to be difficult to deploy - and how many yachts under 45' come with 2 bow rollers?)

I wonder how many of the bigger is better faction carry 2 anchors (both of which are 'new gen' and I wonder how many of the second anchors meet that same BIB criteria - and if not why not, people do report losing anchors - even if only temporarily. And where do they keep that second anchor?

Jonathan

All good points, but the big problem is that two smaller anchors (set on separate rodes) only give a modest increase in holding power over a small single anchor.
The force tends to alternate from one anchor to the other as the boat swings. This "walks" one anchor then the other backwards.
Rather than two small anchors and all the hassle of setting one from the dingy why not use the big anchor all the time? Much easier. It is only an extra 10-15kg. If unforcast bad weather appears it is already down and ready to go.

A lightweight aluminium anchor anchor is a great (almost essential) addition to any cruising boat, but think of it as an anchor to row out if you run aground, or to limit swing, or to align the boat with the swell. Fortress is great In this role. If you are regularly using it to increase your holding power your main anchor is too small.

Johnathan is right a spare main anchor is great addition.

The dismountable anchors like the Spade and Mantus mean it is feasible to have have a dedicated spare anchor stored below. Good insurance.

[downunder]

Nolex,

here is another demountable alloy worth considering.

SARCA in Action - anchorright.com.au

[johnmcntsh]

I would like to thank the posters on this thread. I have not read every post, however, the ones I have read have been incredibly enlightening and informative.