Anchors - Bigger is Better ?

[DumnMad]

Hahaha. Cruisers only carry one anchor????

[Cotemar]

Originally Posted by DumnMad

Hahaha. Cruisers only carry one anchor????

I am with you.
Every cruiser I know carries a minimum of two anchors. Some carry three or four.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Increasing weight from 55lb to 75lb offers a 36% increase in weight but a miserly 12% increase in surface area.

With a Rocna the weight jump going from 55 to 73lbs produces a 20% increase in fluke surface area. With a Spade 55 to 70lbs also increases the fluke surface area by 20%.

I am not sure what anchor gave you only a 12% increase for the greater jump in weight between 55 and 75 lbs. As you have noted yourself, with the discrete limitations of steel thicknesses, anchor dimensions do not always progress in linear fashion so quite a variable jump is seen, but 12% is not representative of the increase generally seen in surface area with a 36% increase in weight.

I also think a larger anchor does gain some advantage beyond a simple increase in surface area. The larger heavier anchor will penetrate weed etc better than the same design smaller anchor.

Originally Posted by JonJo

I also note Noelex that your recommendation in post 834 differs to the one in post 949?

Perhaps you are referring to the different weights used?
The 5-10 kg in post 834 refers to the sort of increase I believe you would need to match the holding of two identical anchors.

The 10-15 kg in post 949 refers to the the general increase in size I would recommend over the tables listed for a single anchor. So it is not in any way related to the practice of using two anchors.

Originally Posted by JonJo

Again Noelex - you have never used a Kobra and the ones you have seen used might be used by neophytes (and/or be too small). Until you use one I suggest your opinions are just that and based on minimal personal experience. Consequently until you use one maybe you could cut back on your criticism

I actually think the Kobra is a good anchor. I stand by my opinion that it is not as good as the Rocna/MS, or the Spade.

I base a lot my of my conclusions on diving and observing anchors and watching how reliably the anchors set and hold in adverse conditions, who drags in bad weather and how the anchors rotate with a wind shift etc. I also talk to other cruisers I meet.

To give you a simple example: last week I was in an anchorage with very hard sand (a tough test for any anchor). My own Rocna set the first time and held full reverse, but checking it when diving it was only moderately set. With some winds forecast I re-anchored in an area that looked to be slightly softer sand. The first drop my Rocna only held to 1700 revs before it let go. The second drop it held full reverse, but diving the set still looked identical despite my effort.

Another yacht anchored besides me with a small Kobra. They set the anchor hard and it held well. Diving on the Kobra it had set within a few feet and achieved a moderate set, impressive given the very hard substrate.

We had winds of about 35 knots with a 60 degree shift in direction. We both held fine. While it was not a very strong wind, the combination of a small anchor in poor holding ground with only moderate scope (they had out about 5:1). Diving after the wind both anchors had not moved backwards more than a few inches and had both set a bit deeper. It was a good result and boosted the estimation of the Kobra.

Sorry for the long winded tale. This is only one example, but I hope it illustrates how some useful assessment of an anchors performance can be made without actually owning the anchor.

Most days I get to see several people anchoring and subsequently dive and observe their anchor. You are correct I have never owned a Kobra. For the record current anchors are a Rocna, Fortress Gardian and CQR. For the last six years plus I have been full time cruising, anchoring over 300 days of the year.

I don't agree that only members who have owned a particular anchor should comment on a thread. Even opinions about the design elements of an anchor I find interesting, but as always anyone is free to make up their own mind and read or dismiss contributions as they see fit.

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by Coops

The difference there is that Ferrari owners think that the other brand makes a better anchor, and vice versa.

Coops.

No, I do not think so at all! The main thing I look for in an anchor is being able to sleep well at night and have spent and spent attempting to accomplish that goal.

I used to be a stalwart supporter of the Bruce claw. Here in Massachusetts it held well for years. That all passed with the rapid growth of ell grass. I long ago gave up on that anchor. I have similar tales about Delta anchors that reliably PLOW! It is not acceptable to claim "my anchor held but plowed when subjected to strong winds and current."

I finally purchased an 80# Manson Supreme in my attempts to sleep well at anchor. If I have troubles with it, I will try another to satisfy my determined desire to sleep!

No Ferraris here, Coops and for that matter, its not brand names people seek out, they seek secure holding by their anchor.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Possibly someone can explain to me the actual increased margin of safety, in terms of wind speed, that this increased weight will produce.

Increasing weight from 55lb to 75lb offers a 36% increase in weight but a miserly 12% increase in surface area. Many people would agree that its surface area that engenders hold. But as the load increases as the square of wind speed I frankly doubt that you can tell the difference (and would be better with 2 anchors). I also note Noelex that your recommendation in post 834 differs to the one in post 949?

I see that increasing weight engenders a false sense of security and complacency but I see little evidence that a 5 knot increased safety margin (i'm guessing at the 5knot - but expecting a reasoned answer - as you all must have done the calculation) merits 1,000 posts.

But I am sure that some will be able to craft an erudite and quantitative replly

Jonathan

To be certified as a SHHP anchor, any tested anchor has to be tested in front of a certifier to certain pull test limits.

They typically don't test anchors this small, but as an example.

A 50kg anchor must be load tested to 23.4kN while a 75kg anchor has to be tested to 32.4kN. So a 25kg increase in weight (or 1/3h) must be load tested to 1.4 times the holding power.

Since this is for standard anchors a SHHP must be load tested as follows.

50kg - 93.6kN
75kg - 130kN

This is an extrapolation from data generated from much larger anchor testing, but the best information seems to indicate that for small anchors (under 1000lbs) the holding power may actually increase even faster as you add weight.

[Stumble]

See http://www.iacs.org.uk/vdunifiedrequ...r_a_pdf148.pdf for more information, and the complete test chart from IACS.

[JonJo]

There has been recent positive comment on the Bugel. This might merit some qualification. The original Bugel, made by Wasi was in stainless steel. The design is very simple and has been copied, most of the examples one sees are copies and in steel and restricted to the eastern Med.

Having looked at them there must be a number of manufacturers as they demonstrate many different or variations on the design. I have seen models with thick plate flukes, thin plate fluke. Some of the models have simple shanks, some have a widening of the shank where they join the fluke. Some of the flukes are simple triangles, others have scalloped edges. I have even seen 'Bugels' with 2 toes. I have seen convex or turned down toe Bugels, which might be intentional but might be a bent fluke. A characteristic of these anchors is appalling galvanising, in fact I suspect some might never have been galvanised, I have see many simply painted (with the rust showing through). A worrying feature is that many are bent (and I assume made from mild steel).

There are not many stainless Bugels.

Bugels are very common in Greece and Turkey but become less common as you move west. There are a number on the Dalmation coast but by the time you get to Italy they are rare and (almost) non-existent in France, Spain and the UK. Speaking to chandlers in Greece, they do not hold them in high regard - but chandlers sell brand name anchors.

Given the lack of enthusiasm for Bugels in Italy, France, Spain and the UK one might deduce they are not that good an anchor - if they were that good, they are so cheap to make one might think some entrepreneur would be making them (or having them made).

It is difficult to see, given the plethora of design variants, that all of them work as well.

It would appear there are a number of manufacturers in Greece and or Turkey (but they could be imported) and their popularity stems from low cost and availability (though I could not find anyone selling them, but did not have that much time to investigate).

Once you leave the areas where Bugels are popular the 'gap' is filled with Kobras and (what I might call a) Brittany - except in the UK where Brittanys are not that common.

Right across the med the anchor of choice is still, Delta, CQR and Bruce (and variants) though the new gen anchors are used by people who anchor a lot.

Jonathan

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by DumnMad

Hahaha. Cruisers only carry one anchor????

There are people posting on this thread and very supportive, vocal in fact, who only carry one (larger or BIB) anchor and any extra they might carry would simply not replace the main anchor.

Noelex has just posted he carries a Rocna, Fortress and CQR. In the event he is anchored in weed or poor holding mud and needs to abandon his Rocna - what next?

Jonathan

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by JonJo

There are people posting on this thread and very supportive, vocal in fact, who only carry one (larger or BIB) anchor and any extra they might carry would simply not replace the main anchor.

Noelex has just posted he carries a Rocna, Fortress and CQR. In the event he is anchored in weed or poor holding mud and needs to abandon his Rocna - what next?

Jonathan

I am one of them. I am not headed down island again for a few years, but I would much prefer to have one relatively huge anchor, and a backup fortress disassembled in the hold in case I ever cut the main anchor free for some reason.

However I would point out that this is more than just my opinion. Steve Dashew on Windhorse has the same set up, and all his FPB's do as well. He also outfitted his Sundeer 64's with the same rig. Though for the Sundeer's it was a 176lbs Bruce.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by JonJo

There are not many stainless Bugels.

They are fitted to all Amels. Although Amels are not sold in large numbers a high percentage of them are used full time crusing so its quite common to share an anchorage with one.
A year ago I scored some very nice bottles of Grand Cru from 2 Amels 55s that required intervention when they started dragging their Bugel anchors almost simultaneously while their owners were away.
The Bugel is also reasonably popular with German crusing boats. (Anchor choice is surprisingly heavily influenced by nationality )

There are lots of copies, mostly galvanised as Johnathan mentions. These can be a good buy for the very budget minded cruiser. The Bugel has a very simple a flat uniform thickness plate for the fluke a simple shank and a roll bar. If the fluke angle and material thickness is correct there is not much else to go wrong.

Originally Posted by JonJo

Right across the med the anchor of choice is still, Delta, CQR and Bruce

Of boats actually out cruising in the Eastern Med where I am at the moment old generation anchors CQR and Bruce anchors are disappearing quite rapidly. They just don't work well in the hard sand here. Delta's are the most popular anchor. There are also a lot of convex designs similar to the Delta like like the Anchorlift Shark, FOB rock, Quickset, Davis Talon etc as well as some cheap copies ( although the Delta and variations are quite cheap here so there is little incentive to go for a no name copy. Kobra is becoming very popular especially on French boats.

New generation anchors are common with boats out cruising Rocna and Spade are by far the most popular.

I did a survey just counting anchors in the marina about two years ago with the following head count.
Delta 36
CQR 11
Bugel copy 11
Rocna 9
Spade 8
Brittany 8
Plough 7
Kobra 6
Bruce 4
Claw 3
Max 3
Danforth 2
Bulgari 1
Dreadnought 1

These are boats in the marina or on the hard, so boats anchoring regularly and that I see in the water tend to have better quality anchors.
I think I would now see fewer CQR's and Plough's with more Spade anchors and more Delta variations. I am close to a marina at the moment so I will do another head count if I get a chance.

[JonJo]

It is interesting that there is regional support for anchors though it may have something to with availability and price rather than nationalistic fervour of yachtsmen. Blame poor international distribution and the added profit margins necessary for distributors, sub-distributors and chandlers rather than jingoism of the yachtsmen.

The outstanding marketing success is Lewmar and the Delta and/or Lewmar with Delta and CQR.

There is no Spade distributor in Australia - guess how many Spades one sees. I'm not aware of a Danforth (or Tie-Down) distributor in Australia, guess how many genuine Danforths I've seen.

Jonathan

[conachair]

Originally Posted by JonJo

The thesis is 'bigger is better'. Full stop end of story.

My thesis is that 2 correctly sized anchors are better, full stop, end of story.

How come bigger boots use 1 bigger anchor?

[Delancey]

I don't think I've ever seen a big ship that doesn't have two Stockless anchors.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by Delancey

I don't think I've ever seen a big ship that doesn't have two Stockless anchors.

Start looking at the new Navy Many ultra modern, state of the art 300' warships carry one anchor located dead centre in the bow.

Ark Royal carried 2 stockless - they were so efficient they had a junior officer specifically on anchor watch, when they had dragged (which was inevitable), whatever preset distance was determined they raised anchor, motored back up and started the sequence again.

Most cargo ships are ordered off anchorages when winds are forecast over around 20 or 25 knots. As has been mentioned previously anchors for large commercial vessels are intended to be used to await entry to port etc etc they are not a fall back in case of strong winds.

In the Med it is very common for commercial ferries, think Greek islands, to moor stern to the quay - commonly to let cars and trucks off. They manouvre such they can approach stern first and drop both bow anchors, often in a 'V' formation. The anchors hold the ferry in a cross wind (but needs two bow anchors). Its obviously a skill in which they are very well practised. Yachts do the same, they tend to be less skilled, but only use one anchor. Sometime they conduct this manouvre stern or bow in. A smaller, tripping slot anchor is ideal.

But I am sure Noelex' CQR will be an equal and adequate replacement for his ROCNA, why else does he carry it? Interesting, considering his negative comments of the design (and convex in particular), that he keeps it as his back-up - seems terribly contradictory

I am equally sure that all those carrying those bigger anchors, 50% higher than recommended, carry a back up anchor of equal weight and capacity - though quite how you store and deploy a 55kg anchor (in the absence of 2 bow rollers) would be a thread in itself. After all not much point in lugging it around if your second anchor will not actually replace the first. I must confess that we learnt through experience - a smaller, second, inefficient anchor is simply not worth carrying, it breeds complacency (and does not work). Our windlass locked open, we dropped our anchor and all the 50m chain (10m depth of water on thick mud) and the retaining 10mm stainless shackle snapped. It took 2 days with a grapnel, using our then standby CQR as our primary anchor, to retrieve. Our old gen anchors collect dust at home now.

Jonathan

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

It is the wasi powerball. It came with the anchor. Some have criticized the weakness of the neck, but I have never heard of one broken (but the consequences would be serious with a very rapid drag)

Ultra make a similar, but smaller ball and socket swivel.

It looks bad to me - dangerously misconceived. Fragile.