Anchors - Bigger is Better ?

[Shas Cho]

Originally Posted by Delancey

With enough force you can drag a concave shape through the ground, it's called a dirt scoop.

Ha!
It's been a long time since I thought of working behind a fresno!

Ours didn't have these nice roll bars, though-
it was just a big shovel
being dragged through the earth
with a boy with big, round eyes
hanging on the the single lever
as if his life depended on it.

Man, but those were some lo-o-ong days.
Letting a plow dig in might stop the tractor,
but letting the fresno dig in
was WAY more exciting!

- Shas

[Shas Cho]

Originally Posted by Delfin

...causing less environmental damage...

That has yet to be demonstrated, I believe.

[Shas Cho]

Originally Posted by cheoah

A plow share is actually concave, and uses that shape to invert the seedbed.

Howdy, cheoah!
That would be the mouldboard.
You are obviously a very technology-aware farmer.
Still, the current tendency to consider
the ploughshare/mouldboard ensemble as a single entity
(though it may in fact be manufactured as a single unit)
is ...
well, now that I think about it
perhaps that *is* the correct evolved nomenclature,
but when considering the shapes of the various parts
and the intended and real results of those shapes
it is useful to retain the historical terms.
The plowshare is convex,
to mouldboard is concave.

- Shas

[Shas Cho]

Originally Posted by Delfin

That must have been pretty tiring and required some skill to keep the furrow level.

It required a heap of skill
and was very hard work
(especially by today's standards).
The novice generally produced
an irregularly shaped, pock-marked chunk of land
that looked like a 200-boat Novices Rally
had just spend two weeks anchoring on it.
A good plow man was a known and respected figure.
And I'm not bragging when I say that-
I was never known as a good plow hand
I was just adequate for our own farm needs.

- Shas

[congo]

Originally Posted by Delfin
To be honest, I have no idea why the CQR doesn't work better. I shouldn't have called it a crappy anchor because so many people have used them for years very successfully, although compared to the alternatives now available it probably shouldn't be anyone's first choice anymore.

Shas Wrote:


Well said.

The reason it doesn't dive better
is due to that extremely long LEVER
upon which the boat/rode is pulling upwards.
A lever which determines the angle of attack,
which in turn determines the depth of penetration.
Yet increasing the inherent angle of attack
(by casting a more upward-angled lever)
reduces penetration due to "tripping" on the toe of the anchor.
Plus, the rode is actively pulling the anchor towards the surface,
reducing it's effective weight on bottom.

It's no mystery to me why the CQR fails to dive.
What baffles me is how ANY plough anchor
is induced to dive successfully!

Rex wrote:

All of what you say in this post is correct, I hope Cotemar has learnt something from this whole discussion so as he can put away his colored pencils and maybe consider an Excel ?

Shas Wrote:

It's no mystery to me why the CQR fails to dive.
What baffles me is how ANY plough anchor
is induced to dive successfully.

Rex Wrote:
No different to the evolution of the primitive ploughs that did not dig very deep and did not need a wheel, they were easily controlled, angle attack and depth, efficiency in design has bought them along way. Now without a wheel or three point linkage they would dive so deep you could not control them, and no Shas, we only adjusted the wheel if we were going from a one horse team to a two horse team, and visa versa.

Delancy will not be pleased you say handles, levers?

The original CQR was a great a anchor, the big letdown was the moving pivoting shank, one millimeter of wear in the pivot results in an extended shank end height of 5 Millimeter, once the galvanizing is scuffed of wear increases rapidly until the shank extends so high its performance continually dropping until further wear sees it no longer set.

Shas you should not get confused with the distinction of a plough verses an Excel, with your apparent knowledge on plowing you may be able to educate Cotemar that the Excel is indeed convex but indeed not a plough, neither is super Sarca, our design has proved to be enduced to dive consecuatively, go to environmental destruction video on our web site, I am sure you will tell, see the difference.

Permits it sucks you say, we had three peek bodies to satisfy before testing , one for when the Tide is in , one for when the Tide is out, and one for what is left in between, serious that’s the way it is.

Regards Rex

[Shas Cho]

Originally Posted by Shas Cho

when the tip-down orientation
causes the ploughshare and mouldboard
to present a wide, nearly vertical surface
to the earth in front of it.

Grrrr!
Time to quit, my brain has already left the building.
Please read "wide, nearly vertical surface"
as "concave".

Thank you.
And thanks to all for the engaging discussion!
So much better than canned television.
Good night.

- Shas

[Shas Cho]

Originally Posted by congo

...and one for what is left in between

Good grief, Rex.
I don't know how to respond without getting political.
Nobody like to think of their own government as tyranny.
You have my sympathy.


-Shas

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by congo

The original CQR was a great a anchor

The CQR was a "great" anchor when it was developed in the 1930's, but "great" it not an appropriate adjective for 2013. If your anchor tests are putting it in the "great" category then something is wrong.

It has major problems setting in hard substrate. Have a look at this video by Compass marine (I am not great fan of beach pulls, but this is independently produced not made by an anchor manufacturer to sell anchors). I have seen (and unfortunately experienced) the same thing many times.

CQR Setting In Hard Sand 4:1 Scope - YouTube

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by Shas Cho

Well said.


It's no mystery to me why the CQR fails to dive.
What baffles me is how ANY plough anchor
is induced to dive successfully!

You are amongst many non - believers, Being polite, Luddites come to mind. Hopefully you will give the thousands of antipodeans who do use modern ones successfully and accept, given they use them and given they made their choice voluntarily - that maybe you are being deprived.

I would not like to think you will say - 'tis impossible', because you have not seen one or are influenced by those who have not seen them.

Jonathan

[congo]

Come on Noelex , you know whose doing that Vid, further that is not a CQR but a Manson plough two very different breeds, further what is the conditon of the pivot.

Regards Rex.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by congo

Come on Noelex , you know whose doing that Vid, further that is not a CQR but a Manson plough two very different breeds, further what is the conditon of the pivot.

Regards Rex.

I understand it was Maine Sail.
Maine Sail does not make many mistakes (does he ever make any) so I doubt he was wrong about the anchor type,

[noelex 77]

On a lighter note have a look at this CQR I spotted recently.

Now either the owner was not happy with its setting/holding ability, or perhaps he felt the original design was not masculine enough.

[congo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by congo
The original CQR was a great a anchor


Noelex Wrote:

The CQR was a "great" anchor when it was developed in the 1930's, but "great" it not an appropriate adjective for 2013. If your anchor tests are putting it in the "great" category then something is wrong.

It has major problems setting in hard substrate. Have a look at this video by Compass marine (I am not great fan of beach pulls, but this is independently produced not made by an anchor manufacturer to sell anchors). I have seen (and unfortunately experienced) the same thing many times.

Rex Wrote:


This is pretty disappointing coming from you, at the time I believe Maine sale was supporting your anchor brand, revolutionary concave roll bar anchor, that footage my friend is a Manson plough and you deliberately choose to cut the brand name and footage of the concave roll bar anchor that made the Manson look silly, in that VID, why ? It could also be possible for the pivot to be flogged out in that Manson, that demo is a dead ringer of what happens when it is.


The reason you don’t see a CQR in our VIDS is simply finding a genuine one without wear, we found is impossible, Manson ploughs are a completely different breed as to a genuine CQR, I have yet to find an aftermarket CQR copy that comes anywhere within the specks of a CQR.


I said the CQR was a great anchor and they are, and yes new technology has improved much on those old designs, how much is debatable as the forums far and wide now are telling more stories of concave roll bar designs dragging than genuine CQR’s that is a fact, in most cases are two sizes bigger than the recommended size CQR.

Noelex Wrote:


I understand it was Maine Sail.
Maine Sail does not make many mistakes (does he ever make any ) so I doubt he was wrong about the anchor type,


Rex Wrote:

Well if he never makes any mistakes he is obviously the only one that doesn’t? so even though the anchor is a Manson plough, he is right because he calls it a plough.

I think your editing in relation to you putting up that Vid is questionable.

Regards Rex.

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by congo

Delancy Wrote:

Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!! Ya here that farmer dudes? Three point linkage ensures a rigid connection, without it the plough would simply swing out due to the resistance of the soil. The rigid connection means the plough and the tractor are one big long lever that uses the dead weight of the tractor to stay down!

Rex Wrote:

Yes well our horse had no 3 point linkage, so we used to jam the plough shank into the horse from where the sun don’t shine to stop it from swinging out, and yes they are handles as we used these to pull it back out.

Regards Rex.

Delancey wrote:

Gee Rex,

Sorry to hear you would get your plough stuck in the horse. One would think with the kind of scope you see on a typical horse drawn plow, that sticking it in the horse would be unnecessary but hey, you're obviously the expert at sticking things into horse's sun-don't-shine spot, so whatever works. I understand that days on the farm are long and hard, especially when you are working around animals.

Funny thing, I notice on your website no mention of your past experience as a farmer, only that you are a fisherman, telecom worker, and enjoy tinkering.

Seems like a missed marketing opportunity, I am sure many yachtsman would be very interested to know about your past experience dragging wedges through the dirt!

I mean you are proud of that experience and it taught you all about making anchors, right? Why not play it up? Seriously who better to make anchors than a farmer?

BTW, you seem to think I think the weight of the horse holds the plough down, not sure why. I said no such thing. Modern tractor, now that's a different story.

[Delancey]

As for the rest of you internet geniuses, um yeah. That thing that looks like a big triangle looking thingy all bolted together out of big pieces of angle and mounted on top of cheoah's plough?

It actually is a triangle and it's what engineers call one-half-of-a-truss. Trusses are of course used by engineer's to resist a bending moment. This triangle attached to the plough is attached to the TRACTOR rigidly with a THREE-POINT connection.

Seriously, you think the lead plowshare, with like a one to one scope, is going to magically dig its way to China? Really? Cuz that one to one scope works sooo well for you when you are anchoring?

Watch any tractor start and stop ploughing. See how when it is moving forward the front wheel of the tractor is being forced into the ground? If those plowshares were digging to China as greedily as you say, the front wheels would be sky high, wouldn't they? But they're not, are they?

No, they are being forced into the ground because the tractor and the plough are rigidly connected, making them one big long lever that uses the dead weight of the tractor to stop the resistance of the soil swinging the plough shares out of the ground, because the ground is anything but a bitch in heat.

Hello? Hi, yeah, the soil? It's actually pushing against the plough shares as the tractor tries to drag them through it, it's a force called resistance. Maybe some of you have heard of it? It's what sometimes prevents your anchor from penetrating.

I'm mean it's great you guys have been having so much fun at the expense of me and the toy dog I don't have, but maybe you should not drink so much beer and instead should try to push on a triangle once and tell me what happens.

Or better yet, maybe you should try to convince cheoah to replace the top link of his three point hitch with a length of chain. Good luck with that one!