Anchors, Guns and Strippers!!!!

[Lost Horizons]

Noelex, will you summarize your opinion regarding Mantus vs Excel overall performance as a “one anchor for all unanticipated conditions,” please?

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by Factor

I have never understood the concept of a lunch hook, do people really put one anchor on for day sailing or for short stops and then change it to another anchor for "standard" sailing.

This one is easy. Overwhelming majority of boaters do not anchor overnight. They leave the dock in a good weather and if they anchor, it is only for a short period of time such as for lunch or swimming.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Factor can speak for himself, but I can support what he says about ripping up the bottom. Roll bar anchors bring up huge balls of seabed when you raise them -- one of their big disadvantages in my opinion, and one of the reasons why I got rid of my 55kg Rocna.


However in my experience, they reset themselves as well as any, and better than most. Don't know what he means by "resetting issues".

I've not excavated significant seabed on weighing mine - mud sticks to it, but no more than any other anchor; it's harder cleaning the mud off the chain IME. I could see if it was set deep enough to embed the roll-bar completely in the seabed, that it would be possible to scoop a large chunk, but generally with the top of the roll-bar proud of the seabed, when the shank is pulled vertically the roll-bar serves to pry the embedded fluke up and out of the seabed. It does collect seaweed - that is a definite drawback.

The only negative issue I've every experienced was in a thin sand layer over solid rock bottom, a strong reversing current and a short scope due to the crowded anchorage - something I will never again subject myself to, but also not the fault of the anchor, just the idiot using it.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Lost Horizons

Noelex, will you summarize your opinion regarding Mantus vs Excel overall performance as a “one anchor for all unanticipated conditions,” please?

Just remember that his opinion on the excel is just that. An opinion based on never ever having used it.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I've not excavated significant seabed on weighing mine - mud sticks to it, but no more than any other anchor; it's harder cleaning the mud off the chain IME. I could see if it was set deep enough to embed the roll-bar completely in the seabed, that it would be possible to scoop a large chunk, but generally with the top of the roll-bar proud of the seabed, when the shank is pulled vertically the roll-bar serves to pry the embedded fluke up and out of the seabed. It does collect seaweed - that is a definite drawback.

The only negative issue I've every experienced was in a thin sand layer over solid rock bottom, a strong reversing current and a short scope due to the crowded anchorage - something I will never again subject myself to, but also not the fault of the anchor, just the idiot using it.

I guess it behaves differently in different sea beds. As a general proposition, I think scoop type anchor bring up more seabed than plow types, and the reason for that I guess is fairly obvious.



Thin sand or thin anything over solid rock is dangerous. This is a common situation in the Northern Baltic. Don't know if this will help you or not, but I eventually figured out that the best holding is almost always in the deepest spots in such places -- the silt apparently goes downhill and collects at the lowest point. Nowadays I will anchor in even 30 meters of water, if that's what it takes to get to a stable piece of seabed.



Caveat: Not only silt, but BOULDERS roll downhill :headbang: I've not lost an anchor yet, knock on wood, but it's been close a couple of times.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Factor

Just remember that his opinion on the excel is just that. An opinion based on never ever having used it.

Everybody is entitled to his own opinion. But Noelex, and Panope, are two sailors who have not only used different anchors (and guessed what was going on at the seabed like you and I do), but they have systematically dived on, photographed, and studied anchor behavior, over a large quantity of samples. I think those guys forgot yesterday more than you or I will ever know about anchors. Their opinions, especially their actual observations, are worth a lot.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Everybody is entitled to his own opinion. But Noelex, and Panope, are two sailors who have not only used different anchors (and guessed what was going on at the seabed like you and I do), but they have systematically dived on, photographed, and studied anchor behavior, over a large quantity of samples. I think those guys forgot yesterday more than you or I will ever know about anchors. Their opinions, especially their actual observations, are worth a lot.

+1

[groundtackle]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Everybody is entitled to his own opinion. But Noelex, and Panope, are two sailors who have not only used different anchors (and guessed what was going on at the seabed like you and I do), but they have systematically dived on, photographed, and studied anchor behavior, over a large quantity of samples. I think those guys forgot yesterday more than you or I will ever know about anchors. Their opinions, especially their actual observations, are worth a lot.

Dockhead, I couldn't agree more but objective sticks to the facts yet subjective can be emotional or opinion based.
Steve Goodwin provided us with fantastic real world data, pretty hard to argue with all that video.
Noelex for some particular reason has continued his dislike and negative opinion even after Panope's vids clearly demonstrates the positive attributes of the Excel. Time after time we all witness perfect sets, resets, deep sets, short scopes. The Excel is certified SHHP by authorized independent facilities. Colin Speedie who writes and published on Morgan's Cloud has one an actually used it, wrote a review. Then we get the glowing testimonials from real world users, sure there are a few failures for whatever reason, nothing is perfect. Digging into Cruising Cat, Rex Francis has a rebuttal that we will post. Noelex is taking pictures and making observations. I have never seen an Excel within his threads or posts in use.
I know for a fact Noelex has never used an Excel. If he had any actual experience his endless Excel bashing would cease. I've offered him one, no strings, he flat out refused to be seen with it.
People do follow Noelexs recommendations, why wouldn't you.
Ground Tackle is not allowed to post unsolicited material on this site but I can defend or answer questions if brought fwd.

I've got a few years on the hook too, many boats with many anchors in many places.
I sell confidence in your equipment and this entire anchoring system must work flawlessly. Excel is just one first-rate component with an accomplished history.

Chris

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Everybody is entitled to his own opinion. But Noelex, and Panope, are two sailors who have not only used different anchors (and guessed what was going on at the seabed like you and I do), but they have systematically dived on, photographed, and studied anchor behavior, over a large quantity of samples. I think those guys forgot yesterday more than you or I will ever know about anchors. Their opinions, especially their actual observations, are worth a lot.

Exactly.

[Jim Cate]

Back to the "environmental damage" with scoop type anchors issue...

Just because the scoop type brings up a big lump of mud does not mean that it is doing more damage to the sea grass, etc, than a plow which comes up relatively clean. The scoop has dug straight in where dropped whilst the plow has, well, plowed a furrow prior to setting, damaging far more of the surface. Nolex's photos show this clearly.

Having to clean the anchor is another matter, though! A good washdown pump is a blessing in some bottoms!

Jim

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Thin sand or thin anything over solid rock is dangerous. This is a common situation in the Northern Baltic. Don't know if this will help you or not, but I eventually figured out that the best holding is almost always in the deepest spots in such places -- the silt apparently goes downhill and collects at the lowest point. Nowadays I will anchor in even 30 meters of water, if that's what it takes to get to a stable piece of seabed.

It has taken me a little while to learn this valuable lesson ... but every time I have had any problem with the Excel, with hindsight, it has been due to not following this advice. Realising this is what recently convinced me to install a windlass, so that I'm not tempted to seek out shallow spots in an effort to avoid hauling in all that chain by hand.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Thin sand or thin anything over solid rock is dangerous. This is a common situation in the Northern Baltic. Don't know if this will help you or not, but I eventually figured out that the best holding is almost always in the deepest spots in such places -- the silt apparently goes downhill and collects at the lowest point.

I'll keep it in mind if I encounter that type of bottom again. I won't be going back to the place I referred to - Allen Cay - which I'm sure will generate a few knowing nods.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Everybody is entitled to his own opinion. But Noelex, and Panope, are two sailors who have not only used different anchors (and guessed what was going on at the seabed like you and I do), but they have systematically dived on, photographed, and studied anchor behavior, over a large quantity of samples. I think those guys forgot yesterday more than you or I will ever know about anchors. Their opinions, especially their actual observations, are worth a lot.

Agree - But not their own facts. One of those people has used the excel and video'd it and formed an informed opinion, One has not used it and formed an uninformed opinion.

[darylat8750]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Everybody is entitled to his own opinion. But Noelex, and Panope, are two sailors who have not only used different anchors (and guessed what was going on at the seabed like you and I do), but they have systematically dived on, photographed, and studied anchor behavior, over a large quantity of samples. I think those guys forgot yesterday more than you or I will ever know about anchors. Their opinions, especially their actual observations, are worth a lot.

Anyone involved with this discussion who have not read all of Panope's videos and Nolex77s pictures of anchors threads are really missing a LOT of solid information. Neither of these guys are just pulling opinions out of their armpits.

[Izikalvo]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

No, there is nothing wrong with oversizing the anchor from the manufacturer’s recommendation. In fact, this is exactly what most long distance cruising boats do. People tend to think of the extra ultimate holding power as only being useful in extreme conditions, and this is certainly a help, but the extra holding ability allows the safe use of anchorages with more marginal substrates and at shorter scopes in more commonly encountered wind conditions. This considerably expands the locations where the boat can be anchored.

Mike has the best sizing recommendation:



Your proposed 40 kg anchor on a 42 foot boat is not particuarly outrageous. The quote about people laughing while walking along the dock or marina was originally made by Steve Dashew. He fitted a 110 kg (240 lb) anchor on his FPB 64 power boat. These are narrow, relatively low windage vessels.



A larger anchor provides great additional security, but don’t become too complacent, especially when taking advantage of the improved performance by using more marginal locations. Anchoring is still never 100% secure. I have dived on enough anchors to see situations where even the best anchor will struggle and this is not always obvious from the bow.

So to sum up, there is nothing wrong or even very unusual about your choice of anchor size.

Anchor design is always a controversial subject, but personally I would have more confidence in a Mantus, Rocna and steel Spade. These are all excellent designs so at least consider these alternatives. However, these models have a larger fluke area than the Sarca Excel so check carefully how they fit if you decide to choose one of these models especially the Mantus that has a long tapered fluke, which together with the large roll bar makes it physically a large anchor for the weight.

We all know the importance of the fluke seabed angle and at least one company, that I know well, accepted an ideal of 30 degrees and improved the holding capacity of the anchor from X to Y using HT steel in the fluke as well as the shank and thus have engineered a weight saving you can get and enjoys the high hold to weight ration characteristic of aluminum anchors without sacrificing strength. In fact, this company fluke, for example, is stronger than most other designs. and it also has a sharp toe able to penetrate hard sedimentary seabeds (without sacrificing half the hold with a low seabed/fluke angle), the sharp toe is also advantageous in weed. However, we emphasize that people should not focus on anchoring in weedy seabeds except as last resort, or necessity, as anchoring does dame weed beds (which is the nursery ground for marine organisms).

You just need to look with wider angles, the anchor industry has changed a lot, and you have to consider all of the new variants due to advanced materials and new designs.
Your anchor doesn't have to be so heavy anymore.