Anchors, Guns and Strippers!!!!

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Tayana42

Mike, my Rocna25 also comes up backwards some of the time. If I motor forward to clean the mud off it will be backward most of the time. A short time moving in reverse will always turn it around to the proper orientation to come over the roller. Easy and reliable. Just need to watch out where I’m backing.

Thanks T. I've really never thought about the forward/reverse thing. But I'm quite sure the orientation I end up with is due to the twist in my chain, which seems to be a random event. The rise from water to roller takes long enough that my anchor has time to rotate around, regardless of which orientation it exits the water.

Luckily it's not hard for me to grab hold of the chain and give it a little counter-twist when needed. But usually the anchor self-rotates if I give it just a bit more thrust on the old manual windlass just as the shank is hitting the roller. It's really never been a big deal.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

What's an "anchor flipper"? ...

Two ways to skin that cat:

https://titanmarineproducts.com/product/swivel/

https://www.osculati.com/en/11004-m-...ling-connector

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

What's an "anchor flipper"? Never heard of this, and my quick Duck Duck search didn't hit on anything. Is there a more official term?

There are three types:

1. A round banana shaped stainless bar often with a swivel at one end
2. A flat “v” shaped plate attached via anchor shackles at both ends
3. The Ultra flip swivel


I am not a great fan, especially of the first two types. They do work well to straighten the anchor as it comes over the bow roller, but they add a lot of attachments where the chain and anchor can become hung up on each other, in particular the second type. They also add considerable bulk that reduces the ability of the anchor to bury. The flat plate particularly worries me in this regard, as chain often twists and a flat plate is going to be hard for the anchor to force under the substrate.

The Ultra flip swivel is quite different. It is expensive and it does not look to have enough articulation to prevent side loads, but I have never heard of one failing so perhaps this is an unwarranted concern.

Edit: thanks for the links Lodesman. I had forgotten about the new Titan swivel which looks promising. The other link is to the Osculati which is an example of the first type.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by Scubaseas

Indeed, That would be 810mm shank tip to roller contact on my boat which allows for a shackle or two. Have the Lighthouse 1501. Appreciate the input. Thanks.

I neglected to add that connected to my Lewmar Delta 44 is 300’ 5/16” HT Acco/Perless Galvanized Chain; I wouldn't go with anything shorter. After a number of years you can reverse the chain to use the non-worn links.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[noelex 77]

Here are some photos.

This is Type 1:


Type 2
This photo is from:
Anchor Right Australia introduces, the innovative Flip Link - Anchor Right Australia



And finally the Ultra Flip swivel:


The first two devices are popular with power boats that often raise the anchor from the helm and therefore cannot see what the anchor doing. I think they are best reserved for boats that only anchor for short periods rather than overnight for the reasons I have mentioned. The Ultra flip swivel is quite different.

[Mike OReilly]

Thanks Lodesman/Noelex, I learn something new every day here.

I'd have to look and play with these things more to really know, but my initial reaction is a you say Noelex. It looks like this is adding additional connection points which likely adds risk. I'm not even a fan of swivels, so these look like this, and more.

Like I say, the rotation thing is really not a big deal in my arrangement. Having a manual windlass means things happen slower anyway. If I notice the anchor is coming up backwards I just need to give a little extra power which gets it over my first roller. The anchor then rotates around. Or I can grab the chain and rotate it around by hand.

If I don't notice, and it gets stuck, then it's a simple matter of easing off a bit, and rotating the chain. Either way, it's really not a big deal.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

If I don't notice, and it gets stuck, then it's a simple matter of easing off a bit, and rotating the chain. Either way, it's really not a big deal.

As well as the technique of reversing slowly (with concave anchors) that has already been mentioned, the other thing that seems to really help is a large diameter bow roller.

A larger bow roller also tends to reduce the friction, which increases the anchor winch’s effective pulling power, especially under high loads.

[Scubaseas]

because the steel Spade is an excellent anchor

I agree 100% but in my particular instance a desired size Spade won't fit without modifying either the anchor well hatch or the anchor roller. I can fit a S120 but then ideally I would go one or two sizes up from recommended size. The Excel is just a tad shorter than the Spade from roller contact to end of shank. From what I can gather Excel owners think the same as Spade owners. I am sure they are both excellent anchors.

[peterlewis19]

I always find anchor discussion interesting, always the attention is on the anchor - not the chain. As a liveaboard for the last two year in the Med on a Beneteau 523 (16.0 m) I inherited a Delta 25Kg anchor and 50 M of 12mm chain and 50 m of 22mm rode - never used. I have anchored in 40 - 50-knot winds on the nose and found the chain aspect is MORE important than anchor size. My very undersized anchor is fine if I have 50 meters of very heavy chain ( just upgraded to 70 m) out in anything under 10 - 12 m depth
It must be a combination of the both - don't lose sight. P

[skipgundlach]

billknny earlier asserted, in a discussion about over-center efforts and anchor orientation:

If your anchor will not park itself correctly on your roller starting from ANY orientation there is something wrong with your roller setup.

Originally Posted by skipgundlach

Lucky you. Ours, if allowed, would seat perfectly, nose up. Every time.
Despite the AnchorLift swivel.

You can see our setup; what's wrong with it?

Still listening

[BigBeakie]

Scub,

One of the particular strengths of the Excel that may factor into your sizing consideration is that the Excel buries really deeply compared to many other anchors. It is a high holding design anyway, but under higher wind forces, or if you have alot of grunt in reverse with your engine when you set it, it is common to have the shank completely disappear. And not just in fluffy sand or softer bottoms, but even in harder substrates.

That is unlike the Delta which has a tendency to "plough" through the surface layer, or to remain fairly shallow with (some?, concave?) roll bar designs. Because it looks like a Delta does not mean it behaves like one, as the videos show.

If you go up 2 sizes, will your engine in reverse have the pull to set it properly?

We decided to go up a size with the Excel because,
1. We're a high windage cat, and
2. We're planning high latitude cruising grounds, and
3. We're using lighter G100 8mm full chain rode. Strong, but not as much catenary assistance to the anchor.



Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Charles S]

I agree with over size! I had a 88 LB Rocna on a 40,000 lb Trintella 47 and it pulled out with tide changes and did not set if we backed at over 1.3 knots.
I switched to 99 lb galvanized Spade and it’s set and held every time. It’s not too big for you!
Best wishes
s/v Dawnpiper

[KetchJohnB]

We are at 39Klbs, GW. 400 ft of 5/16 G4 HS, 73 lb Rocna. No problems in 7 years of full time in the Pacific and 3 years in the Caribbean. Dragged 3 time in the period. All in Coral "gravel" on rock surface. Right now we are in sand and mud, 48 knot gusts, 25 sustained (Isla Providencia, Colombia - stuck for now). Not a problem. The chain was for the Pacific, where it can be a bit deep. The 5/16" G4 is the real stuff, and is high strength steel. It is more than strong enough...that is another story. Mantis looks like a great product. You chain plan looks perfect to me for the Atlantic and Caribbean.

[roythomas]

I work for Defender In CT. You may have heard of us as a marine supplier.

I sell many anchors and am frequently researching style and effectiveness and surveying boaters, manufacturers and experts on anchors and anchoring.

What I’ve learned is there is no “best” anchor. The bottom conditions have a profound effect. Some designs do better in some conditions.

1. Carry a style suitable to your cruising grounds. Carry 2 - 3 different anchors and styles.

2. Manufacturers estimates are all over the map and a big variable they can’t predict is “windage”. Windage varies hugely between 30’ boats. (Think center console vs fly bridge cruiser. )

3. Bigger is better. I have a working anchor and a storm anchor. But .....I’ve still had surprise squalls on my working anchor and was scared. It held with lots of chain but still scary at 1:00am.

4. Chain-boat connection should be 6-8 feet of cutaway cordage. You’ll never get the chain disconnected in an emergency.

5. Have a swivel.

6. Inspect your chain and rotate it yearly. This way each end sees use and wears evenly. Like rotating tires on a car.

7. Learn proper snubber use. There is a science to it. Centenary effect is negligible with 20 knots of wind. Don’t let your windlass be the load bearer.

8. Go with big vs more. Setting multiple anchors in a storm has its own inherent risks. (Skip Novak has a good video on this subject).

Ok, I’ll shut up now.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Originally Posted by Scubaseas

OK now that I have your attention maybe just anchors... Here's my dilemma. "They that know" or at least the ones I respect their experience and opinions espouse using an anchor as a primary bower that is one if not two sizes up from what the manufacturer recommends. ...snip...


Al

Al,

You may wish to think about this a little differently. Just as you probably don't sail around in 30k of wind with your largest genoa flying, you probably shouldn't anchor every day with the biggest anchor you carry. It's not that you can't do it, is just that its.. well... kinda silly.

A much more reasonable approach is to have multiple anchors, which you're already doing. But, don't hang the biggest heaviest storm anchor on the bow. It belongs in a locker down low in the boat where it'll stay until you actually do come across a real storm.

Day-2-day anchoring is best with an anchor that is appropriate to the conditions. In my opinion. We have a 70,000lb boat with a fair bit of windage, we use a 80lb Spade which works great. But, hiding below a berth just above the keel is a 150lb Danforth all disassembled and doing nothing buy holding the boat down a little.

Don't reduce the sailing ability of your boat every single day just so you won't have to haul out the storm anchor if and when you actually need it.

After over 30,000 miles of cruising in all sorts of places, I've only needed my "big anchor" three times.

Have fun,
Beau