Anchors, Guns and Strippers!!!!

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Beau.Vrolyk

You may wish to think about this a little differently. Just as you probably don't sail around in 30k of wind with your largest genoa flying, you probably shouldn't anchor every day with the biggest anchor you carry. It's not that you can't do it, is just that its.. well... kinda silly.

A much more reasonable approach is to have multiple anchors, which you're already doing. But, don't hang the biggest heaviest storm anchor on the bow. It belongs in a locker down low in the boat where it'll stay until you actually do come across a real storm.
...

I agree. In all this discussion I believe we are talking about the bower anchor -- the every day one used most of the time. I view my bower as something that should be capable of managing up through to storm conditions (~55-60 knots). Beyond that we're truly into storm (hurricane) conditions, and that usually calls for a different approach.

This is why I say your bower anchor should be the largest scoop-style (new-gen) anchor that your crew, and boat's systems, can reasonably manage without undue or special effort. In true storm conditions, then any and all effort is warranted. That's when I bring out the storm anchor (a large Fortress which sits disassembled down below), the extra rodes, spare anchors, and indeed anything else I think might help.

But these are exceptional measures for exceptional circumstances. Definitely not the normal conditions I anchor in 99% of the time.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Lost Horizons

It is nice to be able to retrieve the anchor without the windlass. In which case lighter is better.

Too many pages to go through but if no one else addressed this, with a chain hook and a line you can raise most anything using your sheet winch, in my case 30 foot at a time, but it’s about the only way I can get a 40 KG Rocna up in strong wind.
I did it one time by hand with a 25 KG, before thinking about the sheet winch, and it near about killed me.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Mike,

I think we agree on everything except the wind speed for "everyday" anchoring. I really doubt that anyone here really expects to be at anchor on an everyday basis in 50+ knots of wind.

Certainly, there are places with unexpected squalls, but those don't usually kick up seas large enough to matter and certainly not within an anchorage. While the discussion has centered on windage, the real demons for anchors are waves. The short term load on the gear is immense as a wave pushes all the catenary out of the anchor rode, especially for all chain setups.

No, I think having a bower anchor that is correctly sized for wind speeds up to about 30k (which is far less than half the windage drag of 50k, because as you know the force of the wind goes up as the square of the velocity) would be just fine for almost everyone almost all the time; and I live near San Francisco where it's windy.

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by roythomas

I work for Defender In CT. You may have heard of us as a marine supplier.

I sell many anchors and am frequently researching style and effectiveness and surveying boaters, manufacturers and experts on anchors and anchoring.

Roy, thank you for contributing to this thread and welcome to the Forum!

I appreciate the service Defender provides to the boating community and frequently buy things from them. In fact, I currently have something in route coming next week. My current anchors - a Rocna and Fortress - also came from Defender; thanks!

I would like to use this opportunity to ask you, why Defender does not carry other modern anchors discussed in this and other threads, such as Spade, Excel, Ultra, and Mantus? I will be adding a third anchor in the next 12 months and don't want it to be just a bigger Rocna. Spade is one candidate, which, coupled with Defender discounted pricing, may be a reasonable choice.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Beau.Vrolyk

Al,
you probably shouldn't anchor every day with the biggest anchor you carry. It's not that you can't do it, is just that its.. well... kinda silly.

I guess I am kinda silly .

Although I would add the disclaimer that mine is the largest anchor I can comfortably manage, which I think is an important distinction.

If the wind picks up in the middle of the night, or the anchorage proves to have in indifferent holding ground, or I need a short scope, then perhaps I am smart.

I would rather be silly .

[Medic 4 U]

It's a pretty simple concept. No different than my years as a medic, going to a cardiac call, or any call I didn't feel comfortable the two of us could handle alone in the ambulance. We would call for an engine assist. Just like you using your bigger anchor.

I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. It's really that simple. Your bigger anchor is never going to let you down, nor is your heavier ground tackle.

Let the others laugh (or cry as it were), as they sit on their boats that have dragged their anchors, and their boats are pounding on the rocky shore line...

And they years you go without an insurance claim are just icing on the cake as well!

[Mike OReilly]

Hi Beau, we are indeed in agreement -- mostly. I certainly have anchored through quite a few +50 events, both on Lake Superior and in my current cruising ground of Newfoundland. Heck, 30 knots is almost normal speeds up here. But you're absolutely right, it's more about seas than wind.

I don't have an exact windspeed threshold, but to my mind I want my bower to be able to manage those unexpected and unforecasted events. In my experience, 50 knots is not that unusual.

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Too many pages to go through but if no one else addressed this, with a chain hook and a line you can raise most anything using your sheet winch, in my case 30 foot at a time, but it’s about the only way I can get a 40 KG Rocna up in strong wind.
I did it one time by hand with a 25 KG, before thinking about the sheet winch, and it near about killed me.

Yes, it is a possibility, but I am too lazy, I suppose.
However, why would you use a 40 kg anchor and risk going through this trouble when a 20 kg one would work perfectly fine? My previous boat did not have a windlass and had a 33 lb Claw anchor. It was a good and healthy exercise retrieving it by hand all the time. The anchor always worked fine even though the size was marginal for a 34' sailboat. If I went a "bigger is better" route and had a 25 kg anchor, for example, then I would have also needed a windlass, all chain rode and such. Would it be safer? Yes. Necessary? Apparently, not. Size of the anchor is secondary to how well you are able to set it.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

...Although I would add the disclaimer that mine is the largest anchor I can comfortably manage, which I think is an important distinction....

I think this is the key factor. If my storm anchor fell into this category I would use it every time. Why wouldn't I? If your crew and your boat can manage the anchor without undue effort, i.e. "comfortably manage," then why would you not use it?

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Hi Beau, we are indeed in agreement -- mostly. I certainly have anchored through quite a few +50 events, both on Lake Superior and in my current cruising ground of Newfoundland. Heck, 30 knots is almost normal speeds up here. But you're absolutely right, it's more about seas than wind.

I don't have an exact windspeed threshold, but to my mind I want my bower to be able to manage those unexpected and unforecasted events. In my experience, 50 knots is not that unusual.

Well, I guess that just shows how inaccurate the Pilot Charts are. I haven't ever sailed in your area so I took a look. They certainly show 30 knots to be common in wintertime. I doubt there are many cruisers there in the winter, but I don't know. It must be nice to cruise in a place with so few other sailors.

But even in December and January, they don't show a single observation of anything like a Force 9 blow. It's odd, the pilot charts for the areas I do sail in are pretty accurate except for small geographically local winds caused by venturi effects where no experienced person would ever anchor. We get Force 5 and 6 (up in Canada) but that's on the chart. Weird.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Beau.Vrolyk

Well, I guess that just shows how inaccurate the Pilot Charts are. I haven't ever sailed in your area so I took a look. They certainly show 30 knots to be common in wintertime. I doubt there are many cruisers there in the winter, but I don't know. It must be nice to cruise in a place with so few other sailors.

But even in December and January, they don't show a single observation of anything like a Force 9 blow. It's odd, the pilot charts for the areas I do sail in are pretty accurate except for small geographically local winds caused by venturi effects where no experienced person would ever anchor. We get Force 5 and 6 (up in Canada) but that's on the chart. Weird.

The pilot charts are gross measures of large areas -- not particularly granular. A normal wind day up here is 20knots, with 30 being pretty common. The small craft wind warning marker is 25.

Come on up. You'd love it with your boat.

[David Mathis]

The manufacturer's recommendations tend to be good with one size larger if you plan to be anchoring in adverse conditions. However, bottoms vary. An anchor that will hold in sand during a nasty storm may be ineffective in soft gooey muck. Since the bottom at most of our cruising destinations is sand or gravel, my 43' express cruiser hasn't had a problem holding with a 44 pound Bruce, an anchor that tends to not work well in soft mud. When I first got it, it had problems penetrating hard sand, the kind that's almost like a sidewalk 10 - 20' down. A disk grinder applied to the forward edges to taper and sharpen them made a tremendous difference in setting, penetrating, and holding. The last serious storm hit at about 2 am and lasted a couple hours. The howling wind was making the boat tack so much that I started the engines to take some pressure off the rode and reduce the swing. In the morning, calm and blue sky, I used a mask and snorkel to check the penetration and was at first unable to locate the anchor. It was finally discovered that it had buried with the top of the anchor about a foot down. The boat has 25' of 5/16 chain and 250' of 9/16 three strand nylon. The anchor size needed to safely hold greatly depends on the bottom and of course, the anticipated conditions. Obviously, anchoring in the open in a gale is much different than being on the lee of an island and experiencing 30 knots gusting to 50 or 60. In some conditions, you need a bigger boat as much as needing a bigger anchor. Having a huge anchor isn't much help if the sea conditions destroy the boat and the forward half is located on the bottom a month after the storm. If my cruising area had the soft gooey bottom, the boat probably would be wearing a large Fortress, but they don't work well in grass and weeds. So, before you decide on the anchor size, check the charts to determine the bottom at your destination and get an anchor that works well for that material.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Beau.Vrolyk

Al,

You may wish to think about this a little differently. Just as you probably don't sail around in 30k of wind with your largest genoa flying, you probably shouldn't anchor every day with the biggest anchor you carry. It's not that you can't do it, is just that its.. well... kinda silly.

A much more reasonable approach is to have multiple anchors, which you're already doing. But, don't hang the biggest heaviest storm anchor on the bow. It belongs in a locker down low in the boat where it'll stay until you actually do come across a real storm.

Day-2-day anchoring is best with an anchor that is appropriate to the conditions. In my opinion. We have a 70,000lb boat with a fair bit of windage, we use a 80lb Spade which works great. But, hiding below a berth just above the keel is a 150lb Danforth all disassembled and doing nothing buy holding the boat down a little.

Don't reduce the sailing ability of your boat every single day just so you won't have to haul out the storm anchor if and when you actually need it.

After over 30,000 miles of cruising in all sorts of places, I've only needed my "big anchor" three times.

Have fun,
Beau

Well, there's sure a lot of ideas here that I can't agree with!

First, apparently your windlass is capable of raising the larger anchor, so I'd say that the larger one is covered by the "biggest that the crew and boat can manage well" criterion.

Second, with a 70,000 lb boat, I don't believe that the additional 70 lbs of the larger anchor on the bow would make any perceptible change in boat sailing performance.

Third, retrieving, assembling and moving the 150 lb anchor to the bow when conditions have deteriorated enough to warrant its use seems a daunting process. And then, once you have dragged it up to the bow, exactly how do you change over from being anchored on the smaller anchor to being anchored on the larger one? Either you have a second chain rode and deploy the storm anchor whilst the other anchor is still set, with all the problems that are endemic to that process or you must weigh the working anchor, change to the storm anchor and re-set it... and all of this under storm conditions. Not a happy prospect IMO! Oh... and if you do have the second rode, it's weight in the bow is far greater than the paltry 70 extra pounds of the storm anchor in terms of sailing characteristics.

At this point I expect that you might say "but I will know that a storm is coming and set t he big anchor ahead of time" or something like that. And in the SF area that might be a reasonable plan, for the wx is fairly constant and predictable and well forecast in terms of significant storms. But in much of the world this is not true. Met offices are few and far between and forecasts are not so good. Violent thunderstorms are common and sudden to appear, often in the wee hours. And down here in the south, we get frontal passages every few days with associated strong winds, any of which might entail use of the "storm" anchor. And many anchorages lack the firm mud and sand of the Pacific coast and SF Bay... places where the holding is kinda vague. These are the realities of long term, long range cruising, and I for one wouldn't want to be swapping anchors quite that often.

In short, if your windlass, other gear and crew can handle the bigger anchor, then it isn't a problem to use it all the time. If it can't handle t he bigger anchor in normal use, how can you expect it to manage under bad conditions?

For us, after 34 years and over 150,000 miles of cruising, there have been LOTS of times we've been glad to have our biggest anchor in use vs none where we wished it was smaller (and that includes 17 years with a manual windlass).

Jumping down from my soapbox now...

Jim

[CaptainRivet]

definitly the biggest anchor you can fit on your boat is the best anchor. And yes size matters :-)

If that is maxed out there is another trick to enlarge holding power that nobody mention so far:
the first 10m (total length <40m) over 15m (total length >40m but < 60m) till 20m (total >60m of chain) off the anker chain should be the thickest, beefiest and heaviest your anchor whinch can handle. Then continue with your "normal"/recommended chain size for your anker and boat. Like this the additional weight of the oversized chain helps to put force on the anker to plow in deeper plus the extra weight of the chain gives you signifcant more holding power too. And the overall weight of the chain is not compromised /rised that much. If you can only add 5m beefiest one in the beginning, do it as its better then nothing.

a tip I got from an old rescue boat captain I sailed with.

He said he would even trade 10m of the beefiest chain in the beginning for 10m of dynema rope at the end of the chain to compensate if total weight of the chain is a problem for your boat but you need that total length of a chain sometimes for the area you are ankering in. Most have a space problem as the limiting factor in the anchor locker he said and by adding the bigger chain in the beginning that will result in approx 5m shorter chain overall.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

definitly the biggest anchor you can fit on your boat is the best anchor. And yes size matters :-)

If that is maxed out there is another trick to enlarge holding power that nobody mention so far:
the first 10m (total length <40m) over 15m (total length >40m but < 60m) till 20m (total >60m of chain) off the anker chain should be the thickest, beefiest and heaviest your anchor whinch can handle. Then continue with your "normal"/recommended chain size for your anker and boat. Like this the additional weight of the oversized chain helps to put force on the anker to plow in deeper plus the extra weight of the chain gives you signifcant more holding power too. And the overall weight of the chain is not compromised /rised that much. If you can only add 5m beefiest one in the beginning, do it as its better then nothing.

a tip I got from an old rescue boat captain I sailed with.

He said he would even trade 10m of the beefiest chain in the beginning for 10m of dynema rope at the end of the chain to compensate if total weight of the chain is a problem for your boat but you need that total length of a chain sometimes for the area you are ankering in. Most have a space problem as the limiting factor in the anchor locker he said and by adding the bigger chain in the beginning that will result in approx 5m shorter chain overall.

Unfortunately the gypsy wheel on your windlass won't accept two different sizes of chain, so this plan is kinda hard to implement in reality. And then, just how do your link two significantly different sizes of chain together?

Perhaps another plan that sounds good when you say it really fast...

Jim