Anchors, Guns and Strippers!!!!

[Salmoneyes]

Up front, I have not read the pages of responses to the OP. That said, I too have a ridiculous amount of "stuff" on board putting the 12 meter ketch in the 42,000 pound plus category. Our original anchor was a 75 pound CQR which works great when it hooks. I too am going to go with a Sarca #8 or 9. An old timer convinced me that we can handle the weight up front on our boat and the main anchor should be our storm anchor. I just hate the idea of getting up in the witching hours to deal with a dragging boat from a storm that whipped up from no where. We are going to replace the windlass and the chain at the same time so all are matched...

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Unfortunately the gypsy wheel on your windlass won't accept two different sizes of chain, so this plan is kinda hard to implement in reality. And then, just how do your link two significantly different sizes of chain together?

Perhaps another plan that sounds good when you say it really fast...

Jim

Some gypsy wheel can accept two or even 3 different sizes but you are right a lot can't.

It depends on their design. The windlass is normal made for a ranges of chain eg 6 to 8mm chain. If you are at the end of range you can't do it but if you are not, buy a gypsy that can except your current size and one or two sizes bigger and do it.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Unfortunately the gypsy wheel on your windlass won't accept two different sizes of chain, so this plan is kinda hard to implement in reality. And then, just how do your link two significantly different sizes of chain together?

Perhaps another plan that sounds good when you say it really fast...

Jim

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Some gypsy wheel can accept two or even 3 different sizes but you are right a lot can't.

It depends on their design. The windlass is normal made for a ranges of chain eg 6 to 8mm chain. If you are at the end of range you can't do it but if you are not, buy a gypsy that can except your current size and one or two sizes bigger and do it.

Hi, the only electric windlass models that I could source for my boat when I needed a new one were all for one size chain only, could you please identify a make and model that does what you recommend.

[Izikalvo]

Good to see you are all alive and well.
Scubaseas, bigger is not always better, not with guns nor strippers and definitely not with anchors, read here:
https://vikinganchors.com/knowledge-...-always-better

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Yes, the Spade uses lead ballast. Both the Spade and Excel depend on large ballast chamber as the primary means of achieving the correct setting orientation. (Unlike, for example, the roll bar anchors where the roll bar provides this function).

The much denser (especially in seawater) lead ballast in the Spade is one of the reasons it has, in my view, a distinct performance advantage, but as you have indicated it is a hassle if the anchor needs re-galvanising.

I am very much in favour of your approach of oversizing the anchor, but the anchor still has to set to achieve significant holding power. Compromising the anchor design and oversizing the anchor to compensate can sometimes work satisfactorily, but choosing the best general purpose anchor is a much better starting point.



The fit of the anchor on the bow roller is important and unfortunately the Rocna and especially the Mantus will not fit all boats. However, the steel Spade does not have a long shank and I am surprised that it there is any practical difference. The overall length of the 55kg Spade is listed as 1155mm which is a little shorter than the 55kg Excel at 1280mm. This does not directly give the shank length from the bow roller and unfortunately the manufacturers quote different refrence points which makes a direct comparison difficult, but I would check the fit more closely on your bow roller with a cardboard template.

What he said. Spade is a very good choice for kelpy bottoms. Will often cut through where others just bounce off. Because of the lead filling and very sharp fluke.

But the OP is also right that they aren't really well galvanized. I personally prefer dealing with that rather not being able to get the anchor to set.

As to size - I would not really want anything less than maybe 40kg for boat that size and windage.

[BigBeakie]

Just to clarify the post from Noellex on the dimensions of the 55kg Excel, the dimensions are clearly marked on the dimensions diagram on the Anchor Right website, and include the dimension from the roller to end of shank, which for the Excel #11 55kg is 810mm.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Yoty]

"How can you be too securely anchored?", asked Woodland Falls, earlier.
Elderly couple (70's) seated in their pretty 26-ish footer ketch, opua, NZ.
Two anchors up forrard, Primary, Secondary, both properly chocked.
Two small (dingy n oars small) CQR's and rope, chocked to Pushpit and deck chocked were Danforth and Fisherman.
Being a Lower Hutt yoty from birth, I was seriously impressed !
I turned 70 this year and sail a Wagstaff Puriri Moth. Slab reefed Main. Yay !
Soft aerobics on the water.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Izikalvo

Good to see you are all alive and well.
Scubaseas, bigger is not always better, not with guns nor strippers and definitely not with anchors, read here:
https://vikinganchors.com/knowledge-...-always-better

Curious - there's been no comment/rebuttal to this. It's an interesting supposition - can an anchor be too big for the boat to be able to effectively set it? Not sure I really buy that argument, but would like to see what other more learned seadogs think?

I'm in the "bigger is not always better" camp; but for different reasons. In most systems, you want a controlled mode of failure - a weak link or relief valve. So the question is where do you want the anchor system to fail - you don't want the chain to fail, so it's sized appropriately; so if your huge anchor isn't going to budge, what's left to give? - your bitt? your cleats? the whole bow?

The big ships will run their engines at anchor when the winds are over 45kts or so, to take the strain off the chain. So I figure if the recommended size Rocna and 300' of chain is dragging, that's my cue to sit in the cockpit with Mr Volvo sharing the load.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Curious - there's been no comment/rebuttal to this. It's an interesting supposition - can an anchor be too big for the boat to be able to effectively set it? Not sure I really buy that argument, but would like to see what other more learned seadogs think?

Perhaps... I'm a big proponent of not just getting a proper set, but getting the anchor properly dug in. In theory, an initially poorly dug in anchor could dig itself in further when forces on the boat build. But if this new force sends the boat in the opposite direction of the initial set, there is real risk of the anchor popping out. Then you're relying on the anchor to reset on its own, which is an uncontrolled event.

But on the flip side, a bigger anchor will set easier than a smaller one (comparing same types of anchors), so bigger is definitely better there. And many people still set their anchors under just sail (me included, on occasion).

I stand by my recommendation to get the largest scoop-style anchor your boat's crew and systems can manage without undue effort or strain. This includes engine/sail size.

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I'm in the "bigger is not always better" camp; but for different reasons. In most systems, you want a controlled mode of failure - a weak link or relief valve. So the question is where do you want the anchor system to fail - you don't want the chain to fail, so it's sized appropriately; so if your huge anchor isn't going to budge, what's left to give? - your bitt? your cleats? the whole bow?

Under what circumstances do you want your anchor to fail? I don't see any good outcome to having anything fail in this system. I certainly wouldn't want to size my anchor with that in mind.

Originally Posted by Lodesman

The big ships will run their engines at anchor when the winds are over 45kts or so, to take the strain off the chain. So I figure if the recommended size Rocna and 300' of chain is dragging, that's my cue to sit in the cockpit with Mr Volvo sharing the load.

Have you ever tried to do this? I have, in a very limited way. It is exceedingly hard to stay in the goldilocks zone of providing just enough power to relieve strain, but not too much power so as to produce yawing or otherwise increase shock loads as the boat moves forward, then falls back.

I certainly have done it, and would do it again, but I view this as getting close to the last option when faced with a deteriorating anchoring situation. Much better to be properly anchored in the first place. And this is best done with the largest anchor you can reasonably manage.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Curious - there's been no comment/rebuttal to this. It's an interesting supposition - can an anchor be too big for the boat to be able to effectively set it? Not sure I really buy that argument, but would like to see what other more learned seadogs think?

I'm in the "bigger is not always better" camp; but for different reasons. In most systems, you want a controlled mode of failure - a weak link or relief valve. So the question is where do you want the anchor system to fail - you don't want the chain to fail, so it's sized appropriately; so if your huge anchor isn't going to budge, what's left to give? - your bitt? your cleats? the whole bow?

The big ships will run their engines at anchor when the winds are over 45kts or so, to take the strain off the chain. So I figure if the recommended size Rocna and 300' of chain is dragging, that's my cue to sit in the cockpit with Mr Volvo sharing the load.

you don't want to have a weak link in your ankering system...as bullet proof as possible.
Yes 5 sizes more then current will most likely be too big but 99.99% cannot fit 5 sizes more and they don't have to think about it. In theory there is a too big anker, in practical terms the too big one won't fit.

So 1 or 2, max 3 sizes more then current is max you can fit. So we can or should discuss if 3 sizes more is too big?
- Sure first point is you have to check if your windlass can handle that more weight. If you have already at the max chain size/limit of your windlass spec and 120m of chain it maybe too much to go 3 sizes bigger but 1 or 2 bigger should always fit. Most quality build boats have enough room to play here so no problem.

- 2nd: How many % is a 45kg (recommended) or even 75-85kg (3 sizes bigger) anker compared to a 12t boot. it's the difference between 0.0037% and 0.0070%, so totally insignificant. So if that 12t boat moves backwards to properly set the anker it doesn't matter if its 45kg or a 85kg anker. The momentum of 12t compared to 45 or 85kg anker is that what counts. And it will be burried properly if ankering done right it doesn't matter if its the recommended size or 3 sizes bigger...sure if its the wrong anker type for your boat or the ground you want to set, then a recommended and 3 sizes bigger anker will fail.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Hi, the only electric windlass models that I could source for my boat when I needed a new one were all for one size chain only, could you please identify a make and model that does what you recommend.

the 42ft Ketch of the rescue boat captain I sailed on (and who gave that hint) had a Lofran 1500W with custom gypsy wheel that accepted a 8mm and 12mm chain. Not sure if I have the photo of it anymore, i know I took one. Will have a look.
The inner "cirle" was 8mm and the outer 12mm. The 8mm chain could pass the outer cirlce with 12mm "cutouts" without getting stuck and was holding in the inner circle. The 12mm chain was too big, so it didn't pass through to the 8mm inner cirlce and was held by the outer circle.


And a 65ft motoryacht (that I had the luck to be part of the crew) had a hydraulic operated gypsy wheel that was kinda cut in half horizontally. Then both half were operated with a hydraulic that pressed it togehter or opened both halfs accordingly to the chain size used. Like this it could even haul in or out the rope that was attached to the end of the anker chain to give it a wider range to anker (due to weight restrictions). Never saw that before either. Well that motorboat had also a kite system on to sail it, which worked surprisingly well when we had downwind.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

the 42ft Ketch of the rescue boat captain I sailed on (and who gave that hint) had a Lofran 1500W with custom gypsy wheel that accepted a 8mm and 12mm chain. Not sure if I have the photo of it anymore, i know I took one. Will have a look.
The inner "cirle" was 8mm and the outer 12mm. The 8mm chain could pass the outer cirlce with 12mm "cutouts" without getting stuck and was holding in the inner circle. The 12mm chain was too big, so it didn't pass through to the 8mm inner cirlce and was held by the outer circle.


And a 65ft motoryacht (that I had the luck to be part of the crew) had a hydraulic operated gypsy wheel that was kinda cut in half horizontally. Then both half were operated with a hydraulic that pressed it togehter or opened both halfs accordingly to the chain size used. Like this it could even haul in or out the rope that was attached to the end of the anker chain to give it a wider range to anker (due to weight restrictions). Never saw that before either. Well that motorboat had also a kite system on to sail it, which worked surprisingly well when we had downwind.

I believe that the key word here is custom, as in not a standard item, that I suspect would cost as much as or more than the windlass to drive it.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Perhaps... I'm a big proponent of not just getting a proper set, but getting the anchor properly dug in. In theory, an initially poorly dug in anchor could dig itself in further when forces on the boat build. But if this new force sends the boat in the opposite direction of the initial set, there is real risk of the anchor popping out. Then you're relying on the anchor to reset on its own, which is an uncontrolled event.

But on the flip side, a bigger anchor will set easier than a smaller one (comparing same types of anchors), so bigger is definitely better there. And many people still set their anchors under just sail (me included, on occasion).

I stand by my recommendation to get the largest scoop-style anchor your boat's crew and systems can manage without undue effort or strain. This includes engine/sail size.



Under what circumstances do you want your anchor to fail? I don't see any good outcome to having anything fail in this system. I certainly wouldn't want to size my anchor with that in mind.



Have you ever tried to do this? I have, in a very limited way. It is exceedingly hard to stay in the goldilocks zone of providing just enough power to relieve strain, but not too much power so as to produce yawing or otherwise increase shock loads as the boat moves forward, then falls back.

I certainly have done it, and would do it again, but I view this as getting close to the last option when faced with a deteriorating anchoring situation. Much better to be properly anchored in the first place. And this is best done with the largest anchor you can reasonably manage.

fully agree. Additionally the big ships have a self positioning system means you set the location and all engines and bow/sterntrusters will keep it in position. Its also the way the resuce boats keep position to be able to operate a rescue mission or evacuation of a ship. they have massivly oversized engines and bow/sterntrusters or voith Schneider propellers to keep position in even the worst locations...
our cruising yachts don't have such systems.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

I believe that the key word here is custom, as in not a standard item, that I suspect would cost as much as or more than the windlass to drive it.

that might me true but a 3 size bigger anker is custom too and will require in most cases several, not cheap modifications either.
And if that 500$ or even 800$ (i don't know but estimate it would cost that to make a custom gypsy wheel) secures my boat and let me sleep better it is a well made investment.

point is it can be done with reasonable invest and an alternative solution if you cannot or don't want to put a much bigger anker.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

But on the flip side, a bigger anchor will set easier than a smaller one (comparing same types of anchors), so bigger is definitely better there. And many people still set their anchors under just sail (me included, on occasion).

it seems that the Viking anchor guy is suggesting the opposite - not having the proverbial horsepower (or sailpower) means a larger anchor will fail to set.

Under what circumstances do you want your anchor to fail? I don't see any good outcome to having anything fail in this system. I certainly wouldn't want to size my anchor with that in mind.

I want to drag some time before the chain deforms or my snubbers (or the cleats to which they are attached) fail.
Have you ever tried to do this? I have, in a very limited way. It is exceedingly hard to stay in the goldilocks zone of providing just enough power to relieve strain, but not too much power so as to produce yawing or otherwise increase shock loads as the boat moves forward, then falls back.

I certainly have done it, and would do it again, but I view this as getting close to the last option when faced with a deteriorating anchoring situation. Much better to be properly anchored in the first place. And this is best done with the largest anchor you can reasonably manage.

I've done it in a destroyer, but not had a need in my own boat (yet). I do frequently have the motor ticking over enough to reduce the strain when shortening the cable for weighing.

I imagine my anchoring style is a lot more conservative than most - I put out a generous scope and situate so that more can be safely deployed (where possible). If I was anticipating gale force+ winds then I'd have all 300' of chain down and plan for plenty of dragging room. The force necessary to drag a Rocna 33 and 300' of chain in decent bottom conditions would probably be approaching, if not exceeding, the above-mentioned possible points of failure. A watch would be kept in such a situation, and I'd be running the motor once the beefy snubbers stretched by 30% or so. If the bottom is marginal (hard shale for example) then I honestly doubt another 20kg and a few more sq cm of frictional surface in the anchor will provide more security; I'd rather have the extra weight in additional chain, as I believe that gives you just as much deadweight with much more frictional surface area.