Bent Manson supreme

[marinextreme]

I feel it is about time to put all rumours into the paddock where they belong and counter somewhat the personal and private squabbles that have gone on through these boards between the different camps of opinion and bias.
In my new capacity with Rocna I will be compiling information and press releases directly from the CEO of Rocna steve Bambury in New Zealand.
The following is an extract from a personal reply to a forum member a few days ago and published here with the full permission of Steve as CEO of Rocna.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi there from NZ

Craig has recently moved on from the Rocna team here in NZ and is now cruising to Antarctica with his Dad, Peter. He may be back to NZ sometime in March but has left his options open. In his absence I thought to reply to your mail and introduce myself. My name is Steve Bambury and I’ve been part of the Rocna team now for 2 years and took the role of CEO in October last year. I’ve largely been responsible for building our international distribution network and have also been looking after the marketing side of the company.

Perhaps I can take the opportunity to clarify our position with the Chinese manufacturing debate. Yes, we have had some anchors made in China and they have turned out absolutely awesome - although it took a lot of blood sweat and tears to get the production team up to meet our extremely high standards! We’ve taken the expertise gathered from making Rocna’s now for a number of years here in NZ and used this opportunity to improve our specifications even further and incorporated these into the entire production process. We have contracted highly skilled experts in quality control and production management and have sent them to the factory to work closely with the Chinese and have also engaged the services of RINA (Lloyds were too uncooperative – long story) to undertake quality control and be involved with process. The quality of steel used is to the same exacting specifications we have always used.

I hope this clarifies things somewhat and I’m keen for your feedback. I’m also a novice on the forums and am planning to get one of our team here more up to speed on these as I know Craig did some good work there and we want to ensure we get a fair hearing, rather than people making wrong assumptions with incorrect information.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Further information regarding the Stowable Anchor under development will be made public very shortly.
GNK
Auckland
New Zealand

[CharlieCobra]

Interesting, trying the China route. QA is gonna be hard but not impossible to maintain. Good luck with it.

[Hiracer]

Marinextreme,

Is Suncoast correct in their understanding that they will continue to make Rocna anchors for the North American market?

TIA.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by marinextreme

I’m also a novice on the forums and am planning to get one of our team here more up to speed on these as I know Craig did some good work there

I am on a couple of boat forums and over the years have encountered Craig online doing his "Rocna thing" more than a few times.

To be blunt, he came accross as being somewhat unhinged*. And whilst I have no personal reason to doubt that Rocna's are fine anchors and I do like the concept of the "new style" anchors, it would probaby be a Manson simply because I wouldn't buy anything off a raving lunatic - let alone something that was meant to give me a peaceful nights sleep.

And I use the word "raving" deliberately as his MO seemed less about explaining / defending the Rocna anchor, but more the equivalent of beating folk into submission with a Rocna , whilst ranting and raving .

And perhaps he mistook folk starting to avoid encounters with converting the anchoring heathens?


*of course folk with a reputation for getting unhinged makes a tempting target for folk online to wind up (not here though - CF.com tends to be nice to the "Commercials" ).

[s/v 'Faith']

Well said David.

I LOVE my Manson Supreme, but would buy another at 2x the price. I would not buy a Rocna for the reasons you mention.

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

I am on a couple of boat forums and over the years have encountered Craig online doing his "Rocna thing" more than a few times.

To be blunt, he came accross as being somewhat unhinged*. And whilst I have no personal reason to doubt that Rocna's are fine anchors and I do like the concept of the "new style" anchors, it would probaby be a Manson simply because I wouldn't buy anything off a raving lunatic - let alone something that was meant to give me a peaceful nights sleep.

And I use the word "raving" deliberately as his MO seemed less about explaining / defending the Rocna anchor, but more the equivalent of beating folk into submission with a Rocna , whilst ranting and raving .

And perhaps he mistook folk starting to avoid encounters with converting the anchoring heathens?


*of course folk with a reputation for getting unhinged makes a tempting target for folk online to wind up (not here though - CF.com tends to be nice to the "Commercials" ).

[marinextreme]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

I am on a couple of boat forums and over the years have encountered Craig online doing his "Rocna thing" more than a few times.

To be blunt, he came accross as being somewhat unhinged*. And whilst I have no personal reason to doubt that Rocna's are fine anchors and I do like the concept of the "new style" anchors, it would probaby be a Manson simply because I wouldn't buy anything off a raving lunatic - let alone something that was meant to give me a peaceful nights sleep.

And I use the word "raving" deliberately as his MO seemed less about explaining / defending the Rocna anchor, but more the equivalent of beating folk into submission with a Rocna , whilst ranting and raving .

And perhaps he mistook folk starting to avoid encounters with converting the anchoring heathens?


*of course folk with a reputation for getting unhinged makes a tempting target for folk online to wind up (not here though - CF.com tends to be nice to the "Commercials" ).

The Rocna business was sold by Peter Smith 2 years ago now and craig has been assisting with IT and other areas since then. As in the previous posting he has now moved on.

We will now be releasing information directly to the public ourselves, a step that probably should have been undertaken a lot earlier. Hindsight is a good thing, and after reading the various threads and replies on both this board and others we should have been more aware of some of these postings.

We are taking a pro-active approach to the issues of pricing, shipping and quality maintenance and the step to undertake some manufacturing in China is part of this new plan. The development and financial commitment to this new plan has been immense and the Rocna quality standards will not be compromised, only improved.

Fabrication of Rocna anchors is continuing along with casting of some sizes as well. The quality and strength of the cast anchors will speak for themselves and be judged by those who choose to use the Rocna in the future.

[Beausoleil]

Regarding manufacturing in China:

If China wants to be a world economic power, industry there has to adapt and adhere to modern quality methodology. Period.

And from what I've seen, they are coming up to speed. In the high tech world, China manufactures lots of the best gear in the world. All the top names have manufacturing facilities there: Intel, Cisco, IBM, all the major PC manufacturers. Heavy industry such as automotive also has a lot of manufacturing capacity in China.

And just look at the penalties for screwing up: two people face death sentences for the recent melamine/milk scandal, and one woman faces life in prison.

Remember when "Made in Japan" connoted inferior goods? Look what happened to the US auto industry for failing to realize until too late that for the last 30 years, Japan's cars were built better than ours. Don't assume that shoddy manufacturing from China is a given across industries.

And, yes - my Fullriver AGM batteries are made in China, and so far they haven't done anything to give me the "willies" about their quality... And if I remember correctly, our Formosa 51 ketch was made in that wayward Chinese province known as Taiwain...

[Pblais]

Talking anchors is pretty much as nautical as it gets. Members do like to discuss and read about the products they might consider using. Details about them and how they are used and perform is very desirable.

Talking trash about people is not. CF does not take positions against people publicly. We know who we like and who we don't but we don't intend to broadcast it publicly. We insist you do the same as far as everything you post here. We don't let others post negative things about you here because it has to work both ways to be fair.

If you require that type of discussion there are other web based forums that permit members to say anything they like about anyone. We prefer you went there if you feel that strongly about it. They may decide they like you and you can fit in.

[gettinthere]

speaking the truth is not trash talking.

I too ran away from Rocna and bought a Manson because of craigs attacks on this and several other boards. He was banned from at least one board that I know of.
Are we Censoring truth here at CF?

Congratulations to Rocna for moving on from Craig. Good luck to you

[cat man do]

Two Mansons for the price of one Rocna for me thanks, I will enjoy the security of having a spare "just in case", so much so that I will probably get three.

[Pblais]

Are we Censoring truth here at CF?

So far nothing on this thread has been censored. Some might take the question as an accusation that it has. The issues that Craig may have had here or any place else has nothing to do with this topic.

We are not obliged to entertain all topics. We have established rules about what is and is not allowed. We are not a public forum so no censorship is required. We just don't allow what we say we don't allow. It is contained in the terms and conditions of your membership. If you need to discuss this or any other policy you (or any one) may do so using private mail with any of the staff you choose. We don't mind doing it at all.

[Manson Anchors]

It may be interesting to note that the recent seabed testing performed by Rocna ended in anchors being bent also. The difference, in this case, was that the Rocna bent while under use rather than being removed from a rocky seabed. Marinextreme will be able to clarify if the anchors were their Chinese anchors or their NZ made anchors.
Beausoliel you are correct, very good products can come out of China and often do. These items are rigorously checked, they are certified and they have an enormous amount of resources put in to make sure they are as good as they can be. Unfortunately when items arent certified, arent rigorously checked and are hand made there are "bad apples" that innevitably slip through. People dont want the chance of having a piece of safety equipment that is a bad apple.

I have seen that the Rocna now has a complete castiron base (fluke) and the shank is welded straight onto the top of it with a single weld? If this is the case, then that weld (casting to plate) needs to be done under extremely controlled conditions and should really only be done to lock a component into position rather than to absorb the entire load. Welding cast iron to plate steel is generally seen as a big no-no.

Also, the elongation of castiron (or cast steel) is generally at best around 15%. So if, for example, an anchor has enough force applied to start bending the casting it will snap instead of bending. The implications of having the front of the fluke snap is obvious.

But apologies if we are being a bit Craig-esque in our rhetoric. Having seen the new Chinese version of the Rocna I feel that some qualified information and discussion should be put out prior to it being sold, and compared, to the old version made in New Zealand.

[marinextreme]

Originally Posted by Manson Anchors

It may be interesting to note that the recent seabed testing performed by Rocna ended in anchors being bent also. The difference, in this case, was that the Rocna bent while under use rather than being removed from a rocky seabed. Marinextreme will be able to clarify if the anchors were their Chinese anchors or their NZ made anchors.
Beausoliel you are correct, very good products can come out of China and often do. These items are rigorously checked, they are certified and they have an enormous amount of resources put in to make sure they are as good as they can be. Unfortunately when items arent certified, arent rigorously checked and are hand made there are "bad apples" that innevitably slip through. People dont want the chance of having a piece of safety equipment that is a bad apple.

I have seen that the Rocna now has a complete castiron base (fluke) and the shank is welded straight onto the top of it with a single weld? If this is the case, then that weld (casting to plate) needs to be done under extremely controlled conditions and should really only be done to lock a component into position rather than to absorb the entire load. Welding cast iron to plate steel is generally seen as a big no-no.

Also, the elongation of castiron (or cast steel) is generally at best around 15%. So if, for example, an anchor has enough force applied to start bending the casting it will snap instead of bending. The implications of having the front of the fluke snap is obvious.

But apologies if we are being a bit Craig-esque in our rhetoric. Having seen the new Chinese version of the Rocna I feel that some qualified information and discussion should be put out prior to it being sold, and compared, to the old version made in New Zealand.

================================================== ======


We did in fact manage to bend a 25kg Rocna in seabed testing just prior to christmas here in Auckland. This was a new Zealand made anchor.

It was set on an 18mm chain attached to a 16mm wire rope attached to a 150 ton tug with 1000hp exerting 6000kgs of load on an inline certified load cell. The tug was brought to a complete stop and power increased until the anchor broke loose. The amount of pressure applied to this anchor would never be duplicated in any anchoring situation that this anchor is approved for and only goes to further show the extreme strength that our products are rated to.

What was most interesting after closer examination of the tip of this anchor was the fact that there are very clear indentations on both sides of the tip that show it was hooked into an extremely immovable substance that caused the vessel to stop and did not break out until the tip bent and allowed it to slip out of the seabed. The steel at this bend arc is the thickest area of the anchor and is now a perfect curve with no damage to the weld or the shank.

Comparison testing against the equivalent Manson Supreme was undertaken during these trials and the results and photographs will be the subject of a study report to be posted on our website.

A certifier from RINA was on board as part of our inspection and testing program and our seabed testing passed all requirements for Lloyds equivilent to Super High Holding Power.

Our manufacturers in China have also passed all certification and inspections for RINA certification and we are awaiting release of our official certificate. Only the Chinese New Year shutdown has held this up and a press release will be issued once this is in our hands.

Dont be afraid to take the approach you have , we are not afraid to reveal all information from our testing even failures as nothing is as damaging as unfounded rumours such as have been rife on these boards and within the industry in general.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Manson Anchors

The difference, in this case, was that the Rocna bent while under use rather than being removed from a rocky seabed.

There is no evidence how the bent Mansion Supreme got that way. It seems likely that it was bent "while in use" rather than bent as result of a testing program.
The deformation may have been from "being removed from a rocky seabed" or it may have been gradual deformation from numerous breakouts. (the anchor judging from the state of galvanizing is one of the early ones). I hope the later scenario is not correct.

[marinextreme]

Our testing program is designed to do exactly that...test to the extreme limits of the Rocna.

Has anyone on this forum calculated the amount of stress their anchor would be under while sitting at rest ?

The answer is simple really = not much , even in a storm situation.