Bigger is better, part 2

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

I was thinking about starting specific thread regarding Med - mooring, but I'm not sure if it will be of interest here

I am sure there're would be some interest.

Med mooring is very common in some countries either as a means of tying up to jetties/quays or tying up the stern to rocks, or trees.

It is not practical everywhere, but surprisingly it can be especially useful in those countries where it is practical, but not fashionable, at least in anchorages. There are often prime spots left even in crowded anchorages where med mooring and tying to rocks is practical.

[cfarrar]

Noelex,

Thanks, and good point about being able to use 8mm G7 and G4 on the same gypsy. Unfortunately, I would have to import metric G7 from Europe (and pay the freight bill). I asked Maggi for a price, and it's not outrageously expensive, but it's not cheap, either.

[Hydra]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I am sure there're would be some interest.

Med mooring is very common in some countries either as a means of tying up to jetties/quays or tying up the stern to rocks, or trees.

It is not practical everywhere, but surprisingly it can be especially useful in those countries where it is practical, but not fashionable, at least in anchorages. There are often prime spots left even in crowded anchorages where med mooring and tying to rocks is practical.

Yes, I would be interested in a thread about Med mooring. I did it tying to a quay, to rocks or to a pontoon (not in the Med), with the bow held by an anchor or a mooring ball.

Alain

[DoubleWhisky]

I will do my best to make the starting post for a new thread (I hope a good one) tomorrow

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by cfarrar

Noelex,

Thanks, and good point about being able to use 8mm G7 and G4 on the same gypsy. Unfortunately, I would have to import metric G7 from Europe (and pay the freight bill). I asked Maggi for a price, and it's not outrageously expensive, but it's not cheap, either.

Not relevant in this specific exchange but DIN and ISO link sizes are identical for any chain spec, G3, G4 and G7 for any link size - EXCEPT 10mm. If you want 10mm there are 2 gypsies, two link sizes and they are not interchangeable.

Jonathan

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

I can agree with You, Noelex, and I must tell that after all reading, examining of photos and so on I'm going to be more and more interested in Excel (and its sharp tip). On the other hand, after all bad experiences with convex anchors I'm still in some doubt about convex design of Excel.
Probably I can not go further with any conclusions regarding this design without using one in real life!

Cheers,

Tomasz

Tomasz,

Despite negative comment by some, who have never used one, I can assure you that you would not be disappointed with the Excel - in either alloy or steel. Thousands of Australians use them (in steel - the alloy one is a bit new) and they would not be popular here if there were any doubts over performance or quality of build. The whole population of Australia lives in a very few coastal cities - bad news travels fast - and there is no bad news.

I have been following Excel development since the first models were introduced. The tip has had varying degrees of bend as AR have tweaked the whole design. If you stand the most extremely downturned toe against one slightly flatter it looks as if the more extreme was bent - it was built that way.

Illustrating this as a fault simply shows you know nothing about it and seem to be simply the mouthpiece for another anchor maker.

The toes are built, along with the leading edges from Bis 80 - the toughest steel used in anchor making - it is extremely difficult to bend - though anything is possible (but that is why Noelex shank was built from Bis 80 - difficult to bend (and has proven not to have bent in any anchor using it)).

AR have changed the Excel design again - no idea if it will work. They are now to make the toe from stainless in order that it can be kept sharp (owner needs to do the re-sharpening) but being stainless it will not corrode when it loses the gal. I have mixed views - but most of their previous ideas work (which is why they sell thousands here without issue) - so I'm happy to watch and wait. But I am more than happy with my Excel with its Bis 80 toe and leading edges and think the alloy version will be a real winner (might be great for Med mooring, or a Fortress, if you need to deploy by hand).

Sorry for the drift but thought the recurrent negativity (one has to wonder at the motive) needed some balance from someone who has used one for almost a decade. - back to G7 chain.

Jonathan



Jonathan

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

I will do my best to make the starting post for a new thread (I hope a good one) tomorrow

Good Luck

It is actually a mooring style that would advantageously travel - as there are a number of places in Australia that would benefit, for example Eden, or Constitorion Dock (Hobart) or Strahan where people tie parallel to the quay and later arrivals need raft up, guess who wants to leave first!

Jonathan

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Sorry for the drift but thought the recurrent negativity (one has to wonder at the motive) needed some balance from someone who has used one for almost a decade.
Jonathan

Jonathan,

I was not negative about Excel in any way. What I'm thinking about is my cruising ground. Here You mostly anchor (for med mooring) on the bottom substrate being turned up and down continuously. It means the holding is not so strong as may be expected, as the substrate is more loose than it would be in other situations. It may be (just may be) the reason for convex designs, like Delta, being less dependable in Eastern Med than in other areas. I do not know, really, I'm just speculating

On the other hand I'm a little dubious regarding this mixed materials thing You wrote about... We will see

Best regards

Tomasz

[JonJo]

Tomasz,

I wish others had your sensitivity! I was not referring to you. In these loose and soft seabeds you need an anchor that can get deep, where its a bit more firm. But do not confuse the Delta with an Excel - they perform completely differently (in the same way that a Bruce performs completely differently to a Supreme). If the seabeds are that soft then a Fortress set at 45 degrees seems to be an answer?

I too am interested in the mix of materials in the latest re-incarnation of the Excel - I know what theory says, it will be interesting to see what happens in practice.

Theory says the 7075 of the alloy Excel shank is not suitable for underwater application - one has been used as a mooring anchor for 18 months, the shank shows no signs of any corrossion.

In Theory, Practice and Theory are the same, in Practice they are different.

Jonathan

[Andrew Troup]

Tomasz

I had the same idea many years ago, and built a storm anchor (fisherman pattern with folding flukes and telescopic shank) whose flukes were mild steel, but with stainless palms (for the same reason : so they can be kept wickedly sharp - so much so that this particular anchor has to be 'muzzled' for handling!)

An anchor like that doesn't get much use so it's not possible to comment on the long term corrosion implications, but I do have direct experience of mixing stainless and galvanised mild steel in long term submersion: I engineered a lifting keel which was solid steel in the upper section (which stays inside the case) and hollow steel in the projecting aerofoil lower section.

After a couple of years the galvanising had worn off in a couple of places: one where the solid steel upper section wedged into a "keystone" recess when the keel was fully swung down (anti-clonk measure), and at the lowest corner where the keel would ground when being used either as a 'Solid Sounder'™, or to temporarily immobilise the boat while running out sternlines in small coves when singlehanding.

So we took the keel out and I ground away the steel in those locations and welded on a buffer layer of either RSP or 309SS (I can't remember but either would be fine) and then built it back up with weld using 316L filler rod to the original profile.

When the keel is galvanised, the zinc does not adhere to the stainless, so I was unsure what would happen around the edges of the stainless regions, but in practice it has behaved perfectly and is still in good shape 23 years later: no more rust, and no attack of one region by another. (I expected it to work: this is fairly standard procedure for offshore drilling platforms and equipment)

The usual reservations about mixing materials underwater are a good rule of thumb, but can be disregarded for certain proven combinations. (As for instance when mixing suitable grades of stainless steel and certain grades of bronze)

Personally I would not trust an all-stainless anchor for long-term immersion, but I would happily trust one of Rex's stainless-tipped Excels.

The problem with stainless for long-term immersion is its tendency to attack itself, but when there's a huge area of zinc (underlaid by mild steel) both of which are anodic to even the anodic portions of the smaller stainless regions, this is (I consider) not a worry.

[Pelagic]

To me, this discussion is a little bit like deciding on which one pair of shoes you must wear for the rest of your life?

If I were to prioritize:
1….. If practical, increase of scantling by (1 Lloyd numerical value) to allow for wear and tear issues over the many years.

2….. Adopt a preferred anchoring philosophy of choosing spacious locations in deeper water where you can lay out 80% of the main anchor chain overboard, preferably into a natural depression on the bottom. This philosophy dramatically minimizes load stresses.

3….. Regular inspection-maintenance program of “End for End”/ Removing-inspecting joining shackles/Quality re-galvanizing of chain after proper preparation with close personal inspection and gauging of every blasted and acid bathed link, prior to re-galvanizing.

4….. If in doubt… replace ground tackle with same system that has served you faithfully for many years.

Perhaps, my philosophy is more commercial and affected by 7 years running a Steam yacht, (8 hours for engine to be on standby) but it appears to me that many sailors obsess on finding the ultimate ground tackle, because subconsciously they know they often anchor based on convenience rather than prudent seamanship.

I always closely observe my full scope when retrieving, to see which areas of chain, dug into the mud-sand and come up fouled.
I am happy when I see the area just before the anchor, come up relatively clean as it tells me the other fouled parts have provided a substantial part of the holding.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

it appears to me that many sailors obsess on finding the ultimate ground tackle, because subconsciously they know they often anchor based on convenience rather than prudent seamanship.

I think this is generally true.

The ability to use many extra anchorages, or anchor locations which may otherwise be unsuitable because of poor holding, or the requirement to anchor on a short scope, is one of the underrated advantages of the BIB philosophy.

Occasionally this is convenience. The shorter distance you have to carry heavy items like gas bottles the better. More often it is about other factors such as aesthetics. Some of the most beautiful anchorages have been judged as unsuitable, or at least too dangerous to use overnight.

A good quality BIB anchor opens up the possibility of using these anchorage locations with a degree of safety.

There is nothing nicer than watching the sun go down in an anchorage that you now have by yourself because all the other boats have left in the afternoon because the holding was deemed inadequate for overnight anchoring.

[JonJo]

[QUOTE=noelex 77;1509017]I think this is generally true.



There is nothing nicer than watching the sun go down in an anchorage that you now have by yourself because all the other boats have left in the afternoon because the holding was deemed inadequate for overnight anchoring.[/QUOT

+1

And surely being able to carry longer, but lighter, chain of the correct strength is part of the equation - so why do we not see more (people using G7 chain) given that it opens the opportunity to share an anchorage, share a whisky and a frshly caught fish with such interesting characters as Noelex and myself (+ spouses)

Jonathan

[Blue Crab]

[QUOTE=JonJo;1509025]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I think this is generally true.



There is nothing nicer than watching the sun go down in an anchorage that you now have by yourself because all the other boats have left in the afternoon because the holding was deemed inadequate for overnight anchoring.[/QUOT

+1

And surely being able to carry longer, but lighter, chain of the correct strength is part of the equation - so why do we not see more (people using G7 chain) given that it opens the opportunity to share an anchorage, share a whisky and a frshly caught fish with such interesting characters as Noelex and myself (+ spouses)

Jonathan

Even a DoubleWhisky?

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by Blue Crab

Even a DoubleWhisky?

I'm afraid Beata (my Dearest Wife and Highest Authority) can oppose to the idea of me being shared....